Transgender Athletes

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westmoors Aug 2019 11:56am, 15 Aug 2019 3,469 posts	0 westmoors Sorry Jovi but I struggle to understand why anyone feels 'unsafe' whilst getting changed.
smash Aug 2019 12:10pm, 15 Aug 2019 555 posts	0 smash I feel safer with more people around. Everyone in one area = more people.
Jovi Runner Aug 2019 12:12pm, 15 Aug 2019 6,489 posts	0 Jovi Runner Upskirting, cameras in cubicles, reports highlighting the majority (90%) of reported violence against women is in public chsng8ng facilities is wiithin with shared facilities (10% in single sex facilities). I could go on. I really don't want to get into this again. Perhaps we can all just stick to discussing transgender athletes in competitive sport which I have tried to do having posted the video & transcript of the papers/research used to inform the IOC decisi9ns.
DocMoye Aug 2019 12:27pm, 15 Aug 2019 29,511 posts	0 DocMoye reading the debate on the athletics issue my opinion at this point ( though im open to having my mind changed) is that at the elite level where there is drug testing etc it would seem an unfair advantage for a transwoman to be competeting against cis women ( i term i use for convenience and not to offend anyone). However at lower level sport where there is less stringent regulation (such as no drug testing and including parkrun) it becomes impractical to regulate this. However if we want sport to remain inclusive we need to allow all to be able to participate and this may exceptionally mean results are not always 100% fair (which they never will be without stringent regulation) but we can allow anyone to choose to not disclose gender or age or name if they do not wish their results to be compared with others but to still recieve a timed result.
SPR Aug 2019 12:35pm, 15 Aug 2019 28,966 posts	0 SPR I think Vrap's post made a very good point. Cycling seems woeful at providing equality of opportunity. It definitely seems to me that girls generally don't get as much opportunity in sport as boys growing up and it sometimes starts with parenting due to stereotypes. I presume that's in improved over the years but I can't imagine we've achieved balance.
Jovi Runner Aug 2019 12:40pm, 15 Aug 2019 6,490 posts	0 Jovi Runner Girls will get even less opportunities if they are required to participate alongside boys. Also as eloquently noted in the video/transcript earlier even pre puberty boys are proven to be physically stronger.
Velociraptor Aug 2019 1:02pm, 15 Aug 2019 42,762 posts	0 Velociraptor Where equality of opportunity is concerned, running is light years ahead of cycling. As a woman of A Certain Age, I often say that I only run because I don't have the option of racing on a road bike due to lack of events. My lack of talent for the sport is incidental.
rf_fozzy Aug 2019 1:10pm, 15 Aug 2019 9,018 posts	0 rf_fozzy "It definitely seems to me that girls generally don't get as much opportunity in sport as boys growing up and it sometimes starts with parenting due to stereotypes. I presume that's in improved over the years but I can't imagine we've achieved balance." This is true, and an important point. But is actually irrelevant to the topic of transgender athletes. "Girls will get even less opportunities if they are required to participate alongside boys. Also as eloquently noted in the video/transcript earlier even pre puberty boys are proven to be physically stronger." This is also possibly true (although I'd like to see evidence for it), but also irrelevant to the topic at hand. There are solutions to bridging equality in participation in sport. For me, segregation isn't necessarily the go-to answer. And what has been argued on this thread is that we should reduce access for transpeople. Which is hypocritical if you are arguing for greater access and participation for women. Again, a lot of this is down to fear - that someonemight take advantage of a highly specific situation. Again, I ask (a) what is the likelihood of this situation happening and (b) what is the impact (can it even be measured). Without knowing (a) we cannot address (b). We certainly don't want immediately to jump to (z) which is worst case scenarios (i.e. fear!) - which is where we've been for a big chunk of this thread in the last couple of days.
megster Aug 2019 1:15pm, 15 Aug 2019 485 posts	0 megster I've been quietly lurking on this thread for a while now and had settled in to watch and learn, however, V'rap's point about cycling has prompted me to post. So, 3 (bear with me) years ago our mtb team beat their mtb team. Our team was 4 women, their team was three women and a (I'm gonna get the terminology wrong, forgive me) transgendered man - born male, now female - sorry, there is no excuse for my ignorance - hence the watching and learning). Anyway, we only just beat them, and that was largely because the 3 women in their team didn't like the conditions and basically pulled out. This year, lets call her B, entered with another lady: C, as a female pair. We won this category the previous year (largely due to lack of competition). This year we wouldn't have. C completed exactly the number of laps you'd expect in relation to her previous years' performances. B completed about 3 laps to her 1, in times directly equivalent to her performances before she became the person she is now. In other words, and to be tactlessly blunt, she performed at the levels that she was performing at as a male. To pick up Jovi's points, and also to reiterate that I am very live and let live, it would sit extremely uncomfortably with me were we to be beaten by that pairing again next year. It's horribly contentious because she's a shit hot rider and I love to see shit hot riders (of any sex) riding, but it still feels like an unfair contest. I guess my point is, we would have stood a good chance against 2 born females, but we wouldn't if B was racing. Make sense?
rf_fozzy Aug 2019 1:26pm, 15 Aug 2019 9,019 posts	0 rf_fozzy That's a very difficult question to answer Megster. It goes back to what I was trying to ask yesterday. I don't think there is a "fair" solution to it at present.