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Aug 2019
2:56pm, 15 Aug 2019
11,230 posts
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Badger
I do not think it unreasonable to believe that is is inherently unfair if a male bodied person in my age category finished ahead of me & claimed that prize as a female.
I wouldn't for a moment disagree, but I really don't think anybody else posting here would disagree either.
(I can imagine cases where it would be less obviously unfair for a trans woman with years of hormone alteration behind her to win in a small and not especially competitive field [as it goes, I've got one MV50 age group win at parkrun, and there were no women ahead of me, but if you'd turned up that day, you'd have finished 3 minutes ahead of me], but for somebody as quick as you are, no)
Megster's example is not right, either (though if she is still hitting the same times as before she transitioned, it is extremely difficult to believe that her testosterone levels have lowered!)
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Aug 2019
2:56pm, 15 Aug 2019
28,973 posts
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SPR
I think the answer might still be no, but that's the bit that needs to be looked at. The differences between men and women inform it as a starting point but what happens when people transition and whether there's an advantage there is the end point IMO.
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Aug 2019
3:04pm, 15 Aug 2019
22,570 posts
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fetcheveryone
There have also been some examples given, but a few days ago I asked a question about the prevalence of trans women in sport.
Based on rough estimates, there are half a million trans people in the UK, out of a 66 million population. This means that in a marathon with 1000 random entrants, there are likely to be fewer than 8 trans people; or 4 trans women. Given a range of abilities amongst all the competitors in our fictional race, how likely is it that a trans woman will be amongst the prizes?
Are there any studies on this?
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Aug 2019
3:10pm, 15 Aug 2019
6,493 posts
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Jovi Runner
SPR - sorry - I was actually agreeing with you in that I find it offensive that people have referred to her (& Sharron Davies) as masculine - that was my point.
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Aug 2019
3:13pm, 15 Aug 2019
6,494 posts
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Jovi Runner
fetch - earlier in this thread it was argued by some posters that more people who previously felt they couldn't self ID as the opposite sex now would given changes in society. If that's the case there are likely to be many many more trans people in sport in the future so it really does need debating for the future of women's sport.
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Aug 2019
3:15pm, 15 Aug 2019
6,495 posts
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Jovi Runner
Yes a poll would be good.
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Aug 2019
3:16pm, 15 Aug 2019
4,946 posts
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jda
Elite/pro sports is one thing but I do find it baffling that mediocre middle-aged joggers can get worked up about it. I've had a fair few age group prizes and even overall in small races, but it only amounts to a bottle of cheap wine or a toaster (yes really, it went straight to the charity shop) and though it's nice to win it only ever means that no-one better bothered to turn up on the day. There are literally thousands of kenyans with ankles like pencils and VO2max values 50% better than mine, who would leave me in their wake if they wanted. And very occasionally, there's actually one in the race, and they do (eg a couple of city marathons). There is quite literally nothing I could ever do to compete meaningfully with such people.
If people only did sport because they thought they wanted to/could be the best, well, none of us would be bothering, that's for sure.
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Aug 2019
3:24pm, 15 Aug 2019
6,496 posts
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Jovi Runner
jda - so should we just do away with prizes for middle aged joggers? While such things exist then females have a right to a fair chance to win them. At what level would you say it is ok for men to compete in the same category as women - local/regional/elite?
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Aug 2019
3:26pm, 15 Aug 2019
6,497 posts
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Jovi Runner
I really am amazed by how many male runners appear to compete in races just for the sheer joy of it while implying us old women are somehow lacking because we value the chance to race & win.
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Aug 2019
3:27pm, 15 Aug 2019
1,243 posts
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bonners
I disagree entirely jda, and whilst I firmly put myself into the category of mediocre, your terminology is very presumptuous and pandering to stereotypes. Whether it is a local club race or a regional race, there are plenty on here that do compete for medals. I would suggest that the issue at grass roots level is one that really needs addressing.
I can't remember where now, but reading one of the guardian articles would suggest that fetch's numbers are fairly conservative. If rules and regulations are not put in place to protect female participant now there will definitely be a bigger issue at elite level in 5-10 years time.
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Gender identity, please help change
Jun 2021