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Aug 2019
1:52pm, 15 Aug 2019
27,542 posts
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LazyDaisy
I too have been lurking, and reading, and Megster's post seems to me to epitomise the unfairness of transgendered competitors being included in a women's category. I absolutely do not want to stop anyone competing in their chosen sport, but I also do not understand why, when in paralympic sport we can have different categories, we cannot also have different categories in able-bodied (or whatever the correct term is, I mean no disrespect to anyone at all) competition. In Megster's example, I would say that was not a 'fair' competition.
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Aug 2019
2:00pm, 15 Aug 2019
42,763 posts
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Velociraptor
And I came close to saying that MTB was better than road cycling for women who want to race on a bike, megster 
(I think it is, instances such as your example notwithstanding.)
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Aug 2019
2:21pm, 15 Aug 2019
3,470 posts
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westmoors
LD, I have watched some para sport and can honestly say it wasn't competition but more like time trialling. The numbers at any one level are just not there and I feel that would be the same with creating "trans" categories.
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Aug 2019
2:21pm, 15 Aug 2019
3,471 posts
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westmoors
Opinions on this seem divided depending on where people are personally within sport.
For me, a mid-pack runner, being pushed back a place by a transwoman, whether self ID'd or having undergone full transition, would not bother me; the difference between 37th and 38th place is irrelevant! I guess, many other similar placing athletes would feel the same.
However, a biological woman who is used to challenging for top places, whether it at grass-roots, regional...elite level, might be aggrieved if they missed out to a transwomen who "may" have some advantages from their biological maleness. But would that aggreivance depend on how large the margin was? Pipped on the line or several minutes difference? (I pose this as the first female finisher at the 50K I did at the weekend was 20 minutes ahead of the second female. We can only compete against those who toe the start line.)
I can't see a solution that will seem fair to everybody. I think the best we can ask for is a solution that satisfies the majority of competing athletes (both biological and trans).
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Aug 2019
2:34pm, 15 Aug 2019
42,764 posts
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Velociraptor
I feel like you personally, westmoors, and have no argument with the current situation that allows transgender women to compete as women based on self-identification alone in the vast majority of athletic competitions, but also wouldn't dismiss or invalidate the disgruntlement of another athlete of similar ability to me who finished 38th rather than 37th because a transgender woman who is never going to trouble the podium finished a few places ahead of her.
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Aug 2019
2:39pm, 15 Aug 2019
6,491 posts
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Jovi Runner
There's a very simple solution - an open class & a female class. Female should not be the default option for anyone who does not identify as male.
As for why it should apply at all levels, if it did not girls would have no chance of even making the team in sports like football or risk injury if required to compete against men. Female born woman would disappea Olympics as thered be 00s if not 000s of boys/men who due to physiological difference by their genetics (not how they choose to identify) would erase their effort before they made it to elite level.
Even Serena Williams who is arguably more 'masculine'' which I hate to use as a phrase, & who is arguably the greatest female tennis player of all time is on record as saying she'd be lucky to take even one game off Federer or Andy Murray. Are we to just dismiss her comments?
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Aug 2019
2:44pm, 15 Aug 2019
6,492 posts
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Jovi Runner
I have won several (cash & voucher) prizes this year in my age category. I am therefore speaking from direct experience rather than speculation as to how I might feel should a male bodied athlete finish ahead of me. I do not think it unreasonable to believe that is is inherently unfair if a male bodied person in my age category finished ahead of me & claimed that prize as a female.
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Aug 2019
2:49pm, 15 Aug 2019
28,971 posts
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SPR
Being strong doesn't make you look masculine IMO. I certainly don't think labeling women that work on their strength like Serena Williams as more masculine is fair.
The question isn't whether women should compete with men but if there's a fair way with the right 'treatment' for transgender women to compete with cis women.
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Aug 2019
2:54pm, 15 Aug 2019
22,569 posts
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fetcheveryone
Would this be a good point to hold a poll to see how people feel about the idea of the "female" and "open" categories as a way of ensuring competitive fairness in sport? Lots of watchers in this thread, some of whom may not feel willing to contribute, but responding to a poll might be easier.
Good idea? If so, what should the question be?
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Aug 2019
2:54pm, 15 Aug 2019
136 posts
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TommyK
Thanks all for an interesting and informative discussion.
Jovi, I don't think your belief (post 6492) is unreasonable at all, nor is the suggestion of an open class (post 6491).
However. any athlete competing in the Open class, particularly at elite level, would, effectively, be waving a flag at our tabloid media and shouting"come get me!" I can well understand why some athletes might not wish to wave that flag.
I wish there was an easy answer.
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