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Aug 2019
9:54pm, 14 Aug 2019
785 posts
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Trin
Sorry, not Bad, Baz... autocorrect strikes again
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Aug 2019
10:29pm, 14 Aug 2019
9,012 posts
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rf_fozzy
I don't want to veer off topic any longer, but I thought of a good potential analagous situation whilst swimming this evening.
Note I am not saying that this is directed at anyone on this thread or necessarily who might be reading. This is a hypothetical thought experiment only.
Domestic violence (inc sexual violence and rape) against women is one of the biggest areas of violence towards women in this country (if not the biggest?).
Now if we take the line of reasoning that someone might take, the solution is that no man and no woman should ever live together, get married etc, because there is a small risk that the man might be abusive.
The logical extension is therefore that men and women should remain strictly segregated.
Now this is obviously reductio ad absurdum, but I hope the parallels are obvious.
I will also make the point that the proportion of abusive and mysogenistic men are likely to be greater than the number of transpeople you will meet in your life (probably) and given that the proportion of this particular group that are identifying to it for nefarious purposes are going to be even smaller still.
I understand why there might be concern, but let's put the risk into context. It's pretty much non-existant.
Remember the most dangerous thing you can do in your life is (probably) crossing the road. But we're not afraid of that.
(PS: as an aside if you've not read Factfulness by Hans, Ola and Anna Rosling, I highly recommend it. There's a chapter about putting things into context! And another about the instinctive fear response)
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Aug 2019
10:34pm, 14 Aug 2019
28,675 posts
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Mrs Jigs (Luverlylegs)
Thanks fozzy.
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Aug 2019
10:34pm, 14 Aug 2019
28,676 posts
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Mrs Jigs (Luverlylegs)
..perspective...
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Aug 2019
10:43pm, 14 Aug 2019
3,046 posts
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Raemond
That seems like a good analogy to me, fozzy.
We can't design a completely 'fool' proof system, for anything, but it's not practical or even advisable to try to design rules around extreme outliers or vanishingly small risks. The best you can ever do is build in reasonable checks and prepare protocols for dealing with the exceptional incidents if/when they arise.
Happily, pretty much everyone benefits from things like more unisex cubicle based changing and showering spaces, so it's a no-brainer to make that the default.
Personally, I'd be very happy if declaring your gender (or age, for what that's worth) was optional at events if you're not fussed about being ranked - those who do want to be ranked in any given category could easily declare which one and still have the thrill of comparing themselves against each other, and standards such as the IOC use would come into play.
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Aug 2019
10:46pm, 14 Aug 2019
6,475 posts
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Jovi Runner
There is no comparison to what we are discussing here fozzy. A person generally chooses their male/female partner. Yes this may not work out. The issue with safeguarding issues which allows for separate female only spaces is men are going to be allowed in (simply ny sayingvthey are women) who they have not chosen to share the space with.
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Aug 2019
10:50pm, 14 Aug 2019
6,476 posts
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Jovi Runner
Raemond - I'm interested on your thoughts on why you think 'pretty much everyone' benefits from unisex changing facilities. I suspect women who have suffered male violence/abuse may beg to differ or are they part of the ones who wouldn't benefit but just have to get on with things.
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Aug 2019
10:52pm, 14 Aug 2019
9,013 posts
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rf_fozzy
I'm sorry you can't see it JR.
The issue is the level of risk and putting it into perspective. Not the exact parallel.
I'm no longer willing to go round the same circular argument any further, as it's obviously not going anywhere. It's like Greece all over again.
It's also off topic.
I will agree that the issue of transgender athletes is a more difficult one with grey areas, as I've tried to post earlier, but we got swamped with what I consider scaremongering arguments.
I'll now leave this thread alone.
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Aug 2019
10:56pm, 14 Aug 2019
3,047 posts
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Raemond
Unisex individual cubicle based changing facilities, such as we have been talking about for several pages, Jovi. One person, one cubicle.
I'm not entirely sure why other victims of abuse or violence would have particular issues with that set up? It's just about the safest way anyone can change or shower in a shared facility. Actually not even 'just about' - I challenge you to name a safer way.
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Aug 2019
10:59pm, 14 Aug 2019
3,048 posts
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Raemond
Unless... Is it actually *self abuse* you've been worried about all along?
I gather cornflakes are supposed to be good for that.
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Gender identity, please help change
Jun 2021