Transgender Athletes

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larkim Jun 2021 11:10am, 24 Jun 2021 14,889 posts	0 larkim But isn't the point that, irrespective of the bell curve, the purpose of elite competition is to pit the genetically talented outliers against each other to identify the "best". Which is where it gets complicated. Competing under birth gender, Laurel was mediocre relatively. On the bell curve, of course she could participate, perhaps win some local and regional competitions and enjoy the sport. It's only when she competes under her trans gender that she shifts to the outlier position and the picture gets confused. I'm definitely flipping and flopping around this issue. I am 100% certain that a transwoman's right to live her life as a woman in society is absolute. (Hopefully that goes without saying). But does that also translate to a right in absolute terms to compete in elite sport and displace other women? Can the absolute right above be retained without allowing her to compete in that category, or is it right and proper that in that narrow field of life there are some necessary compromises to protect the nature of the female category of sport? I don't know if this is a fair thought experiment to throw out there, but what if Usain Bolt was blinded at the age of 28 through a genetic condition. Would anyone consider it unfair that he competed in the Paralympics in the sprint alongside other blind athletes? He has now met the conditions necessary for the categorization but has benefitted from a previous lifetime of development outside of that category? I actually doubt many people would have a problem with that, though the other para athletes would be considering themselves very unlucky to have been displaced from the podium by him. (I'm conscious that what I've drawn parallels here between is a transgender individual and a disabled individual and I hope that doesn't provide cause for offence; I was trying to identify a situation where "something" was present at birth which then played out to its natural conclusion in early adulthood. And I've also conflated women's sport with disability sport and that's equally inappropriate in many ways, but does address the situation where competition participation is limited entirely to ensure that a category of athletes can compete fairly against one another)
RooA Jun 2021 11:18am, 24 Jun 2021 1,215 posts	0 RooA A blind Usain Bolt would still be competing against other men. His sightedness did not give him the long limbs and freakish speed. He may even suffer a greater relative loss in performance because he is not used to being blind. I don't think the analogy holds particularly well. And I don't think there are analogies, nor are they necessary. Can the male body be (ethically) altered enough to allow a fair competition with females?
CumbriAndy Jun 2021 11:19am, 24 Jun 2021 2,463 posts	0 CumbriAndy Roo - you're correct, of course, that the questions are simple. Trouble is that the simplest questions often have the most complex answers - particularly when we get into ethical space as we do here. And I agree that finding the most ethical way forward is a huge challenge. I blogged when this topic first came up (August 2019 if anybody wants to go back and read it) that we need research to answer the questions as to what the appropriate medical interventions and physiological markers are that would demonstrate fair competition - which means we need people to study, including transwomen trained to a high level - which is something nobody will put themselves through without being able to compete. Somehow, we will have to allow that learning to take place in parallel with some level of competition but how we manage the fallout/collateral damage to the integrity women's sport is a question I cannot begin to answer. We should also remember that most media focus is on sport at elite level. The overwhelming majority of all participants in sport get nowhere near that level but also deserve to be able to compete fairly. How the rules/tests/evidence applied at elite level are rolled down to 'our' level (the local events that auburnette refers to for example) is another huge question that I don't have an answer to.
Vixx Jun 2021 11:23am, 24 Jun 2021 1,375 posts	0 Vixx I do personally believe that research needs to be done (and is now being done at various Universities around the world) but to put things in a slight perspective: - I started transition at the end of 2010. The term non-binary did not exist. The word transsexual was slowly being phased out. - Although there were IOC guidelines back then, there was no danger of anyone actually pushing that envelope. - GIC waiting times were approximately 6-9 months. It's now 3-7 years depending on where you are referred. - This indicates a massive boom in people who feel able to come forward now and change their gender identity. - There previously were not likely to be enough people to research this issue at the time, so the IOC would probably have been considered "forward-thinking" at the time, but are now quite likely behind the curve. I do feel that now there are the numbers, then the research can be done, and needs to be done so that we can find a way to do this. I won't say "make sport fairer" as there are many ways in which it isn't even if you remove the gender issues - doping, other genetic issues for a start. I do however, like what some of the Scottish events are doing and including transgender and non-binary categories to some of their races (particularly if there is a team category) to encourage people to race in those categories. It may not be much but it's a start, and I know Jedburgh Three Peaks has had trans and non-binary runners enter because of the welcome they have received.
faithfulred Jun 2021 11:30am, 24 Jun 2021 721 posts	0 faithfulred I do believe that that is the way forward Vixx, to have specific transgender and non-binary categories. That would maintain the integrity of female sport and at the same time encourage non-binary participants into the sport.
Grast_girl Jun 2021 11:41am, 24 Jun 2021 2,227 posts	0 Grast_girl The issue with the transgender and non-binary categories is they require people to be "out", which I'm sure would be difficult/dangerous for some, but I still think it's a really helpful option.
larkim Jun 2021 11:41am, 24 Jun 2021 14,891 posts	0 larkim Can I post back on the Usain Bolt thing with respect? I like my analogy, and I'm happy to have it torn apart as thought, but would like one last go at trying to get across what's rushing through my head!! Nothing to do with his long limbs etc. Maybe Bolt is a bad example, try Adam Gemili or Richard Kilty. Fewer specifically identifiable traits of speed through their body shape. (The WR for the T11 blind category is 10.99s, so slower than the women's WR.) My point was that athlete A was competing in category 1 and had all of the necessary attributes to compete at a high level. They were barred from category 2 because of a physical condition (full sight in this case). Category 2 is defined to accommodate athletes who have a physical condition (lack of sight) which prevents them from competing fairly with athletes in category 2. Athlete A then acquires the physical condition to compete fairly (on the day) against other athletes in category 2, and is no longer able to effectively compete against athletes in category 1 (though arguably there is no technical barrier to them actually competing in that way). However, due to their previous physical condition they have benefited from years of training, development and performance which means that they can carry those benefits into their new category. Is that not at least analagous to a transwoman (if we assume the science does back up the assertion that male puberty confers life-long physical adaptations that hormone treatment cannot fully reverse or compensate for) starting to compete in a female only category? My point is that I don't think most people would consider that to be unfair, and it is a supportive position that says "If you're happy with the blind sprinter analogy, there's no good reason why you're not also happy with a transwoman competing at a high level with other women"
RooA Jun 2021 11:50am, 24 Jun 2021 1,217 posts	0 RooA Theoretically the sightless athletes could contain an athletes that was fast enough to compete at the pointy end of the sighted category though. It doesn't because there are so many fewer blind sprinters than sightless ones. So theoretically it remains fair. The female category contains over 50%of the population and still does not have an athletes that can get anywhere near the front end of the male category. In fact young males, teenagers, can beat adult female records.
auburnette Jun 2021 11:51am, 24 Jun 2021 1,786 posts	0 auburnette I fully support the creation of trans and non binary categories, I think that opens up opportunities for everyone. People say maybe there wouldn't be enough people in the category but there might be a role modelling effect where participation begins to grow. I don't think that being trans should be something to be denied, I think it's part of the rich tapestry of life and we should be aiming towards a society where differences are celebrated.
The Great Raemondo Jun 2021 11:53am, 24 Jun 2021 7,894 posts	0 The Great Raemondo I follow your reasoning Larks, and more or less agree with it - including all the caveats, lol. It's clearly not a point for point perfect equivalent scenario but I do think it's a very similar principle.