Transgender Athletes

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Jovi Runner Aug 2019 11:50am, 13 Aug 2019 6,441 posts	0 Jovi Runner I agree but until the issue is discussed openly and we are able to discuss issues with M_F transitioners maintiaining a physical advantage - even after reducing testosterne then very sadly I think the situation in the video will only become more prevalent. As they continue to debate self ID in Scotland if that passes then we will see the results as demonstrated in the video. It's all very sad as the above helps neither natal females or transitioned people and is massively open for exploitation of both.
ThorntonRunner Aug 2019 11:53am, 13 Aug 2019 2,373 posts	0 ThorntonRunner Agree
SPR Aug 2019 12:51pm, 13 Aug 2019 28,960 posts	0 SPR It's been mentioned multiple times on here that many male to female transgender athletes would not agree with those that haven't transitioned just competing without transitioning. Joanna Harper is one such athlete and has contributed to regulations. I've posted stuff from her in the athletics thread before and was looking for one of those articles when I found this. Title is relevant very to this thread I think: theguardian.com
ThorntonRunner Aug 2019 12:58pm, 13 Aug 2019 2,374 posts	0 ThorntonRunner Thanks for that SPR. I think one of the problems at the moment is not having sufficient reliable evidence on which to base decisions. Until there is a larger body of evidence, subjectiveness on both sides of the discussion is unfortunately going to lead to clashes.
Autumnleaves Aug 2019 1:01pm, 13 Aug 2019 13,909 posts	0 Autumnleaves Thank you for posting that link SPR
Velociraptor Aug 2019 1:03pm, 13 Aug 2019 42,721 posts	0 Velociraptor Joanne Harper appears to be a very rational voice in the debate.
SPR Aug 2019 1:04pm, 13 Aug 2019 28,961 posts	0 SPR I think it's very possible that science says that male to female transgender athletes have an insurmountable advantage over cis-women and that they can't compete with them. I'm sure that would cause issues but I'm not sure what the solution is the advantage is insurmountable. On the other hand if research said they don't have an insurmountable advantage with the right 'treatment' they'd have to be allowed to win if they're good enough. I'm sure that would cause issues as well, certainly perception ones anyway.
Velociraptor Aug 2019 1:10pm, 13 Aug 2019 42,722 posts	0 Velociraptor (Joanna Harper, my apologies!)
jda Aug 2019 1:15pm, 13 Aug 2019 4,929 posts	0 jda It's worth remembering that however the threshold is defined, there will always be people right up against it who will therefore have an advantage over those who are further away. And it seems fairly uncontroversial that some women have surgical enhancement specifically to improve their athletic performance. Probably/possibly men too, I just can't think of any right now.
Vixx Aug 2019 1:25pm, 13 Aug 2019 716 posts	0 Vixx As I have said before, the IOC rules were drawn up to ensure that any transgender female competing would be doing so on a level playing field with biological women - the purpose of being on hormones for the length of time given is because there are changes made to strength and speed (in terms of losses) that should then make a transgender woman have no particular advantage. They should lose approximately 25-33% of any original strength or speed they have. Also, in my mind, any transgender person who is not happy to undergo testing if required should be removed from any event results. Also, even if Scotland do introduce Self ID, in order to compete, athletes will still have to follow the IOC rules, so men won't be able to rock up and compete as a woman. It looks like the way Self ID might work (details not fully ironed out yet) is going to be a similar process as to when I changed my passport and driving license: I had to get medical letters stating that the change I was making was a permanent one, and would be for life. So even though it's "Self ID", someone else (professionally) is still going to have to agree with that person for paperwork to be filled out. Statistically transgender people are less than 1% of the population at the moment, so the number of people who are likely to even get to the top of elite sport are minimal - as yet NO transgender female has competed at the Olympics. Transgender women in the future will not have had male puberty (and thus no advantages biologically) so this discussion may well even have a time limit on it. However, I do still think that the respective Sports and Athletics bodies do need to start the discussion for further down the sporting chain. Sports (particularly some of the ultramarathon events) in Scotland DO have transgender categories, and encourage people to enter within those categories so that's a start, even if there's only one or two people entering in those categories. If other countries and athletics bodies started looking at it then the conversations can be had. I also think that the conversations should be able to be had without people being labelled as bigots. Jovi should be able to express her concerns without being made to feel that she is wrong. Any transwoman who doesn't play by the rules set should have to give prizes back.