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Sep 2021
1:01pm, 30 Sep 2021
1,520 posts
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RooA
Male - contributes the small gamete in sexual reproduction. In this context, concerning humans, born with the type of body that is destined, with proper development, to contribute the small gamete in sexual reproduction.
We can prevaricate around if you like but if transwomen weren't male then they wouldn't be "trans".
The guidance is quite clear that it is unfair to have transwomen competing in women's sports.
So for all the potential social complexity one can whip up around it it is at least a simple choice for sporting bodies. Fairness and safety in female sports or inclusion of transwomen in the women's category. A simple choice. It seems to me that an "open" category allow inclusion of transwomen and transmen in *sport* but, for transwomen, not in the category they feel matches their identity. Which is unfortunate and some sporting bodies might allow them that privilege anyway. But it should be done knowing that it makes women's sports less fair, and in some circumstances less safe.
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Sep 2021
1:52pm, 30 Sep 2021
15,568 posts
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larkim
But is that always true? Should a transwoman be allowed or not to play in a female snooker competition? Or curling? There are plenty of sports which retain m/f competition divides but for which there is a vanishingly small (or even absent) argument about whether any post-puberty developmental factors could influence the sporting result.
For what it's worth, I've come round to the view that the evidence appears to suggest that if a person goes through puberty with, in particular, a male biology then the chances are very high that they'll have been conferred with physical developments which make their participation alongside women likely to be unfair (to varying degrees) or have safety risks (again, to varying degrees depending on the sport).
But I don't think it is *always* unfair, or *always* unsafe so I dispute the observation that it is unfair to have transwomen competing in women's sport as a hard and fast rule.
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Sep 2021
2:09pm, 30 Sep 2021
54,292 posts
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Velociraptor
It's quite possible that the anthropomorphic differences in body configuration such as relative bone length and joint angles between people who have gone through a male puberty and people who have gone through a female puberty will result in direct sex-based advantages in sports in which these things play a part, which could include activities such as snooker which don't rely on strength or speed. Whether or not they actually do, and to an extent that merits excluding transwomen from competing in the women's category if so, is a matter for each sport to address.
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Sep 2021
2:20pm, 30 Sep 2021
1,521 posts
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RooA
We have already conversed on this thread about which sports are sex-effected and to what extent (most, to at least a somewhat significant degree).
The report makes a very clear statement that for sex-effected sports it is not possible to square the circle of fairness and safety for women vs inclusion of transwomen *in women's sports*. But it advises that many sports could implement and all-inclusive Open category to ensure opportunities to participate to all.
Seems simple enough to me.
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Sep 2021
8:24pm, 30 Sep 2021
1,505 posts
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Vixx
An Open category would ensure that Transmen have no chance whatsoever to be competitive at all.
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Sep 2021
8:43pm, 30 Sep 2021
1,524 posts
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RooA
How so? How is an Open category different to male and female categories in that regard?
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Sep 2021
8:49pm, 30 Sep 2021
1,506 posts
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Vixx
It depends if you are suggesting that Transmen and Transwomen have to compete together or not?
I've not come across Open categories before.
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Sep 2021
9:06pm, 30 Sep 2021
1,525 posts
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RooA
An Open category would be literally that. Open to anyone. With the female category for female athletes. Unfortunately it would not be fair for a transmen who was taking testosterone to compete with females, but transmen would be eligible for the female category if they had not yet taken that step. It would not enhance opportunity to be truly competitive for transmen it is true but that is also how things are currently, is it not? A transman on testosterone can not currently compete with females and it would be a rare occurrence for them to be truly competitive in the male class.
If transmen cannot be competitive with transwomen then surely we don't expect females to be competitive with transwomen either?
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Sep 2021
9:26pm, 30 Sep 2021
1,507 posts
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Vixx
There are some sports that are beginning to have Trans and non-binary elements to their competitive classes, but the thing is that no-one really wants to discuss trans issues in sport, and by discuss, I mean to have BOTH sides getting their chance to have a say - and as usual, the way everything is being done currently is to talk about us without us.
How would all of you feel if you couldn't compete, and just had to suck it up, because at present there aren't enough transpeople to actually create whole teams or to even have a category in many sports? Would you still enter races if you felt that you weren't going to be welcome - even if you weren't going to be setting the world alight?
I would prefer to have a discussion that we can all take part in with ALL sides being heard, but as I often feel at the moment, it feels that many people would prefer that we didn't exist at all to make things easier, rather than allowing us to have a sensible discussion that can look at finding a solution or solutions.
And that applies to the wider world, not just Fetchland.
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Sep 2021
10:05pm, 30 Sep 2021
1,526 posts
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RooA
I'm perfectly happy to discuss this with anyone. I am interested in you perspective.
What is it you would like to see happen with sex categories in sport? And how would you like to see transmen and transwomen accommodated in those categories?
In what way would a female class and an Open class be different from a female class and a male class from the perspective of a transman?
If transmen cannot be competitive with transwomen can we expect female athletes to compete with transwomen and accept it as fair competition?
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Gender identity, please help change
Jun 2021