Transgender Athletes

97 watchers

larkim Dec 2021 4:58pm, 2 Dec 2021 16,192 posts	0 larkim Fundmentally, it's when he engages with concepts like "fairness" that I think he oversteps the science mark. I'm actually mostly on the same page as him these days in terms of the overall conclusions he reaches, but I'd prefer him to stay in the realms of science as that's where his expertise is. I've come around since my earlier thoughts on the matter to broadly agreeing with Tucker etc al, but I still struggle with the fundamental dilemma of "what if this was a family member of mine?" (and that's both from the hypothetical "my sister aged 22 is trying to become regional XC champion, and she is likely to lose to a 22yo transwoman competing in her category", as well as "my sister, a 22yo transwoman, is unable to compete as a woman in the regional XC championships and is forced to run with men which she finds degrading") It's not a big criticism of him, and I did caveat my thoughts a little. I'll listen more on the way home to the latest episode and if there is a particular phrase or example of what I'm thinking of I'll drop a link in here.
RooA Dec 2021 5:04pm, 2 Dec 2021 1,682 posts	0 RooA Does the science not very strongly inform what can be considered fair?
SPR Dec 2021 5:24pm, 2 Dec 2021 35,832 posts	0 SPR What Roo said. Going to need specifics because I'm not seeing it at all right now.
paul the builder Dec 2021 5:31pm, 2 Dec 2021 7,348 posts	0 paul the builder Perhaps we have parallel and slightly different definitions of what we (or Tucker) mean by 'fairness'. I think Ross Tucker, when he speaks of fairness, is very specifically speaking of sporting fairness. The competition aspect. And on this, I agree with Roo - it's very clear. If you (Lark) hear the word 'fairness' and imbue it with something broader, like a societal aspect... then I can see that gets in to grey areas. But I think you're just letting 'inclusion' spill over in to fairness if you're doing that.
paul the builder Dec 2021 5:34pm, 2 Dec 2021 7,349 posts	0 paul the builder And I think the podcast is worth a listen. It's quite long (90min), and being conducted in a twitter live space initially, then put out in pod form afterwards - the sound quality isn't flawless (but it's OK). I know Dr Emma Hilton from twitter, but never heard her in broadcast form before. She's very good.
SPR Dec 2021 5:44pm, 2 Dec 2021 35,833 posts	0 SPR I follow the podcast so will catch it at some point. I listened to the one immediately after the IOC guidance was released: open.spotify.com
The_Saint Dec 2021 5:45pm, 2 Dec 2021 6,916 posts	0 The_Saint The irreconcilable problem here is that it is impossible to be equally "fair" to XX women and people who are not XX women competing in the same category. Note the issue of people born with (some but not all) intersex conditions is another subject - which has fundamentally a similar irreconcilable problem. I am not sure that ethics plays a part here, I suppose on reflection total honesty in terms of not pretending to misunderstand the issues or indulge in false equivalences such as "Usain Bolt is tall - same unfair advantage" should be important.
Fields & fountain, moor & mountain Dec 2021 6:16pm, 2 Dec 2021 699 posts	0 Fields & fountain, moor & mountain Would be fascinating to see the gender split of the non-trans identifying participants. From where I’m standing it seems to be mainly men who have the strongest views on what is very much a non-male issue.
SPR Dec 2021 6:21pm, 2 Dec 2021 35,834 posts	0 SPR Should people only care about issues that affect them specifically?
Fields & fountain, moor & mountain Dec 2021 6:24pm, 2 Dec 2021 701 posts	0 Fields & fountain, moor & mountain Of course not, but sometimes this can read like men dictating what is correct to women.