Transgender Athletes

2 lurkers | 97 watchers

Goofee Aug 2019 4:57pm, 24 Aug 2019 2,908 posts	0 Goofee Thanks for the perspective, -Monty-, you would be made very welcome at Prospect parkrun too!
mascott514 Aug 2019 8:15am, 25 Aug 2019 260 posts	0 mascott514 Monty, Support here to you, as you continue your running journey, lets hope the pace returns, but like you I fear the days are numbered, but running is about so much more than times and that's why I feel its important that voices from both competitive and social runners are heard. Good luck with whatever your running brings you next....
Helegant Aug 2019 8:38am, 25 Aug 2019 6,447 posts	0 Helegant I don't think we've reached any conclusions about how to create a world that offers the best options to the greatest number of people without disadvantaging those individuals in the minority. But I hope we've reached a point where we can begin to understand some of the issues, and still be kind to each other. I'll add my thanks again to those who have posted from a position of experience and knowledge, especially, this week, Monty. I'll continue to lurk and learn - please also be kind to me when I get it wrong - it's a learning curve for all of us.
DocMoye Aug 2019 8:41am, 25 Aug 2019 29,695 posts	0 DocMoye Beautifully put Helegant
paul the builder Aug 2019 12:50pm, 27 Aug 2019 6,598 posts	0 paul the builder Thanks Monty for the honesty, and contributing your experiences. You say you're now happy, and I'm glad about that. I'm concerned though to see some other posts here with what seem to me to be faulty thinking. What I'm thinking about are posts that suggest that because Monty can no longer run a 90min HM, then transwomen don't retain a physiological advantage of some type. Or even the 'softer' conclusion that not all transwomen retain an advantage. Or because there are already powerful and aggressive women who play rugby, then a powerful transwoman rugby player should be of no concern. I especially found it hard to read 'light-hearted' takes on the subject, but I admit that I do find it difficult to be anything other than serious myself about this. I'm sorry that Jovi has felt it necessary to leave FetchEveryone because of this thread. I missed this thread last week, and feel bad that she stood up for her POV, and took pelters for it. If you think it was only her style that was objectionable, and not her opinions themselves - then give her a break, she was practically single-handed against the rest of the thread. I'll certainly excuse her getting emotional in such circumstances. This is not an easy subject, with an obvious or straightforward course of action. I'm highly suspicious of anyone who thinks it is. There are a lot of concerned women right now about this. While (as I say) I don't know exactly what is the complete best solution here, I do know what is not acceptable - and that is ignoring, shouting down, or mansplaining those womens' concerns away. In case anyone isn't aware, there are relevant examples across a wide range of sports, and not just once in a blue moon either. This is a short collection from last week. glinner.co.uk
fetcheveryone Aug 2019 1:55pm, 27 Aug 2019 22,618 posts	0 fetcheveryone I think it's been widely accepted by the thread (see the opening post as an example) that there are issues of competitive fairness for transwomen. I think Monty's experience illustrates that it's far from straightforward. In reference to the rugby example, the language of a game based on collision is full of references to crunching tackles, hospital passes, and so forth - so perhaps the deckchair expression deserves a tiny bit of leeway. But Katie and I both felt that the article needed some balance - it would have been good to hear from opposition players as to how they felt. I wondered about the NZ schools system, where (so I hear) kids rugby is not strictly age-group based, but instead the kids are grouped according to how far along their physical development is. Perhaps a more gender-fluid, ability-based structure would work well for rugby. We were all sad to see one of my son's team have to leave when they reached U12, because she was the best tackler of the lot. But as you've said, there's not an easy solution - not whilst coming out as trans is fraught with difficulties that seem to come down to parts of society not being ready to accept people who don't conform to their world view. We've seen examples from gay Fetchies who have found themselves facing horrible situations whilst simply trying to change into/out of their sports kit, never mind compete. The idea of treating anyone harshly because of their sexual preference, gender, race etc is surely something that unites us all - and that's the starting point we need to work from. It probably only exists in our imaginations just now, but there's a world out there where everyone can compete on sufficiently equal terms to make it fun all round. The hope is that this thread can explore that, in a way that does allow people to express differing views. I have encouraged various people (both publicly on this thread, and in direct messages) not to step away from the discussion, with the caveat that they show respect for other views. I was sad to see JR deregister, and would welcome her return in the future.
larkim Aug 2019 2:16pm, 27 Aug 2019 8,410 posts	0 larkim Very sad to see Jovi disappear from Fetch - her contributions were always interesting and challenging, even if I disagreed (vigourously!) with her. My view remains that, whilst Jovi is right that women who have transitioned from being born "male" do present issues for women's sport, both the volume of that impact (quanity of athletes) and the "death of female only sport" are hugely over-exaggerated, to the point where it seems to me that the right moral thing to do is to accept that transwomen will compete in women's sport, and society should accept that sometimes that will result in sporting outcomes which not everyone is comfortable with - but the greater good of being an inclusive society which accepts all individuals and the challenges they bring to their own lives outweighs damage to women's sport. I am acutely aware that that is a position I hold as a man, who will probably never be affected unless I experience transgender issues in my family, or I have granddaughters. But it is an honestly held view. I hope Jovi returns.
DocMoye Aug 2019 2:25pm, 27 Aug 2019 29,742 posts	0 DocMoye I welcome the opportunity to explore views and be able to change my own views as I am introduced to new and differing perspectives. Jovi's contribution was useful as are all the counter arguments. Sadly we are unable to find a resolution but I think many of us now understand that this is a far far more complex situation than we first thought.
westmoors Aug 2019 3:06pm, 27 Aug 2019 3,496 posts	0 westmoors I'm also sorry to see Jovi go even though my opinions disagreed with hers. My viewsare much along the lines of larkim's 2nd para above. And I'm female
Trin Aug 2019 3:17pm, 27 Aug 2019 819 posts	0 Trin I wasn't going to comment in here again since I was shut down with my last comment, but I feel very sad that Jovi has de-registered because she obviously felt unsupported in here. Paul, she wasn't on her own in her views, I as well as others agreed with at least some of the points she made, I guess it was just her way of putting the points across that caused some 'disharmony'. I do hope she returns. larkim, "Jovi is right that women who have transitioned from being born "male" do present issues for women's sport" but "the right moral thing to do is to accept that transwomen will compete in women's sport, and society should accept that sometimes that will result in sporting outcomes which not everyone is comfortable with " So basically "put up and shut up" Yes, there may not be much of an impact right now, but relatively speaking we are at the very beginning of this change, with trans people coming out more and more as it becomes safer for them to do so, because there is more acceptance. The same thing happened when being gay stopped being a crime and was more accepted. So 10 or 20 years down the line we could have a lot of elite trans women in sport, with the elite nontrans women struggling to compete for the podium.