|
Aug 2019
3:26pm, 27 Aug 2019
8,414 posts
|
larkim
Trin - you've couched my phrasing as an instruction to others, which it isn't. But that is the way that I view it. I discussed it with my better half a few weeks ago, and I was genuinely surprised when she held a very different view to me, much more in line with Jovi's and yours (I think), and that has led to me re-examining my thoughts - but I come out in the same place.
Yes, if the greater good of being an inclusive society has to pay the price of some women losing out on sporting victories, I do think overall that (in the context of the size of the issue today) that is a price we should be willing to pay - we should put up and shut up. But I respect those that disagree enormously, and recognise that that sort of approach won't be agreeable to all.
I don't think there is an agreeable position on the issue without some group of people being asked to put up and shut up. Which is why the debate is so contentious. I don't believe I'll be able to persuade anyone to change their minds, so long as others recognise that my views are unlikely to change if you can trust me to have thought about it and read reasonably widely about the issue.
|
|
Aug 2019
3:35pm, 27 Aug 2019
6,599 posts
|
paul the builder
Trin - you're right, there were a few on this thread, and more still who sent her fmails without feeling able to contribute here (so she told me), who agreed with her POV to at least some extent.
Lark - you're making it as clear as you possibly can that you won't be changing your mind on this. So it feels a bit pointless to ask you - does your view (""if the greater good of being an inclusive society has to pay the price of some women losing out on sporting victories"") change at all with the sport in question? Contact sport versus non-contact, for example?
|
|
Aug 2019
3:48pm, 27 Aug 2019
8,415 posts
|
larkim
I don't really consider contact sport much, but you're right to raise it as an alternative issue.
Are you raising it from a safety perspective, or a sporting advantage perspective though?
If I take to the rugby field as a 5ft8, 70kg man and face up against a 6ft5, 120kg man I will be at a sporting disadvantage (in some aspects), but I'm supposed to be safe in terms of the rules of the game / mandatory safety equipment protecting me. Indeed, on a pro rugby pitch there are often enormous differences in physical size to contend with. The fact that we are both male doesn't really come into it.
If that same 6ft5, 120kg rugby playing man transitions and becomes a 6ft5, 120kg rugby playing woman, and takes part in matches against 5ft5, 50kg women, is there any more of a safety issue? Sporting advantage may accrue of course, but I think my view on the sporting perspective is the (more or less) fixed one.
I'm not really qualified to judge the safety aspect I suppose though.
Sports where physical contact is 1:1 typically have regulations to regularise weights, presumably for safety as well as to ensure a broadly level playing field. So for those sorts of contact sports, there shouldn't be a safety issue - though there could remain a sporting one, if we accept a legacy of muscle accumulation through youth etc.
|
|
Aug 2019
4:08pm, 27 Aug 2019
4,101 posts
|
1step2far
Larkim makes a good point. I'm 5ft 2 and when I played rugby weighed in at 10 stone. Some of the women I played against were almost always taller and on occassion over double my weight. But I was quick and moved around them. Its just the way it os on that one.
If you read back, very early on Vixx made an good point. As being Trans becomes more acceptable more people will transition earlier to avoid the 'wrong' puberty. It makes it that much harder to transition the older you get. There will be a peak in a few years of those who have been through puberty transitioning, which will then drop off. Then numbers competing post puberty-transition will be very small.
|
|
Aug 2019
4:20pm, 27 Aug 2019
6,600 posts
|
paul the builder
Lark - if you accept the possibility of a sporting problem, through "legacy of muscle accumulation" for example. Then in a sport like Boxing there is automatically an increased risk of a safety problem. Automatically.
1step - I think that subject would be an excellent question to ask anyone who has experiencing choosing to transition, or perhaps family members of. If they are willing to, of course. Instinctively I feel quite uncomfortable with the idea of (pre-pubescent) children taking decisions to transition. Are they capable aged (say) 10 of fully understanding that choice?
|
|
Aug 2019
4:25pm, 27 Aug 2019
8,417 posts
|
larkim
That's a bit of crystal ball gazing though isn't it? No guarantees that that will work out as suggested (though I agree it is a credible potential future).
|
|
Aug 2019
4:26pm, 27 Aug 2019
4,102 posts
|
1step2far
Paul, they don't make that choice. My apologies for not being clear. All that happens is that if the child/young person feels this is something they wish to explore then medication is provided that slows down puberty until a time where they are able to make a decision.
They same was said about lowering the age of consent for gay men from 21. It was too young etc. But alot of gay people either know or have a suspician from a very young age. It was obvious to me as young as 5 that I was gay. I just didnt have the support or words to express it.
|
|
Aug 2019
4:26pm, 27 Aug 2019
17 posts
|
Gee-Rizzle
Personally, I don’t think transwomen who can be proved to have a significant physiological advantage in a specific sporting event that solely arises from previously being male should compete in *elite* completion for that sporting event. But unless and until that advantage is proven they should be allowed to compete. Therefore it is up to governing bodies to investigate the physiological issues and provide the necessary evidence, if there is any.
The real issue I have is that a minority of people use this as a wedge issue. They use the elite sport issue to broaden “discrimination” to other areas: non-elite sport, changing rooms, toilets etc. Then taken to extremes the issue of transgender athletes can be used to question the validity of transgenderism entirely. I’m paraphrasing but it has been asked on this thread, which is nominally about transgender athletes, why a ciswoman should have to accept a transwoman as being a woman at all.
|
|
Aug 2019
4:28pm, 27 Aug 2019
8,418 posts
|
larkim
(Sorry, that was a response to 1step2far).
Actually, I don't automatically agree that say in boxing there's an increased risk of a safety problem - there is not intended to be a limit on how hard someone can punch, irrespective of gender issues. Are women inherently that more frail that being hit by the power of a male blow (from an equally weighted opponent) would be a safety issue?
|
|
Aug 2019
4:32pm, 27 Aug 2019
4,103 posts
|
1step2far
Larkim, this is true, but looking at whats happened in the gay community then the average age of coming out has dropped. Many people will want to transition as early as they can so that the transition is ?easier for want of a better word.
|
Gender identity, please help change
Jun 2021