Transgender Athletes

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Northern Exile Aug 2019 9:48am, 16 Aug 2019 5,317 posts	0 Northern Exile I'm glad you made that clear. Some people might have thought this was developing into a man-bashing thread.
fetcheveryone Aug 2019 9:51am, 16 Aug 2019 22,577 posts	0 fetcheveryone I've been wondering how the future might look, with regard to the potential death of women's sport as suggested. It would be interesting to see any other scenarios of how things might pan out. Let's assume the worst i.e. lots of unscrupulous men decide to identify as women, in order to win prizes. As a result, few or zero people born as women win prizes. At a competitive level, the people born as women who play for prizes accept the futility, and stop turning up. The Women's Sport category is now populated by trans women, plus those people born as women who are solely interested in how well they can do (irrespective of how far up the rankings they can get). At this point, does it become obvious that what the viewers at home are seeing is a trans women category? Will the audiences tune in to watch? And away from the TV cameras and the prestige, will teams and groups of people born as women form to compete against each other? Will these competitions gain a following in their own right? Where will the advertisers choose to spend their money? Because arguably, commercial sport is just another interface between advertisers and their audience, and that will likely determine which kinds of sport get broadcast; and therefore which kinds of sport get funding; and ultimately which of the competitors will be rewarded for their performance. If we take on board the assumption that a significant number of trans athletes will skew the prize-winning abilities of women's sport, then it sounds like there's potential that the future also offers a chance for the whole system to correct itself. In doing so, it may even bring about role models for trans people, encouraging greater acceptance by the public at large, and showing that whoever you are, you have potential to achieve stuff. And also the realisation that when it comes to it, we are all just puppets in a system run by the corporate dollar, and that the best we can do is to all look after each other. ^all just ponderings. Happy to have my logic and optimism pulled apart
Gee-Rizzle Aug 2019 9:53am, 16 Aug 2019 2 posts	0 Gee-Rizzle I’ve been a member for years but never posted before. However this issue is extremely important and I think there is one extremely important point being missed. According to U.K. law a transwoman is a woman, regardless of their external genitalia. Treating them as anything other than a woman including calling them a man, banning them from female changing rooms or toilets, asking them for information about their genitalia, or asking them for proof of gender is almost always illegal discrimination. It doesn’t matter whether people accept this personally or not, it’s the law. People can hold whatever personal views they like but in public they do need to follow the law. The only exception that I’m aware of is competitive sport and even then only where it has been proven that transwomen have a physiological advantage in the specific sport. In those sports transwomen can be barred from competing in the female category. But incredibly importantly this ban only extends to them competing. It doesn’t extend to banning them from training, it doesn’t extend to banning them from using female changing facilities, and it doesn’t allow you to call them anything other than a woman.
Jovi Runner Aug 2019 9:53am, 16 Aug 2019 6,520 posts	0 Jovi Runner Whilst strictly speaking not relating to transgender athletes - which I have repeatedly tried to bring the thread back to medium.com
Dooogs Aug 2019 9:58am, 16 Aug 2019 6,012 posts	0 Dooogs I’ve read the entire thread - twice sofar. There have been some very thought-provoking (in a good way) comments and ideas. I have fairly strong gut feelings about this issue – but am trying to keep an open mind as the debate continues. However, the amount of straw-manning (tearing down an argument that nobody ever actually made) is thoroughly unhelpful, on both sides. Jovi’s 6519 is a good example – “It does not mean I hate men to want to fight for women's sport & quite frankly is offensive to suggest it does.”. Where did anyone say or imply that you hate men? I've read and re-read back through the posts and I can't see that line of thought anywhere. It’ll be a far more productive debate if we – on both sides of the argument – try to stick to the points that have actually been made.
Jovi Runner Aug 2019 9:59am, 16 Aug 2019 6,521 posts	0 Jovi Runner Gender reassignment is a protected identity under the law - gender identity is not.
Dooogs Aug 2019 10:01am, 16 Aug 2019 6,013 posts	0 Dooogs PS To bring the debate back to its very start... if we're talking about parkrun, then for once "it's a run, not a race" becomes important. No matter which side of the argument you are on, for me, the inclusiveness and community-orientation of parkrun should take precedence over any competitive instincts. It's a much more contested argument for Sunday races but Saturday runs shouldn't be about who 'won'...
Jovi Runner Aug 2019 10:03am, 16 Aug 2019 6,522 posts	0 Jovi Runner I give up - obviously I just have to accept men are men and women appear to be who men tell us they are. I really hoped we could debate how transgender athletes impact women's sport. Whether one agrees with the ideologiy that a transwoman is a woman or one disagrees with it has absoolutely no bearing whatsoever on how that affects female born women and the protected female category of sport. People cna fully support the idea a transwoman is a woman and still believe that a transwoman has an unfair advantage post transition.
Gee-Rizzle Aug 2019 10:18am, 16 Aug 2019 3 posts	0 Gee-Rizzle Jovi gender reassignment is a protected characteristic, but in order to be protected from gender reassignment discrimination you do not need to have undergone and specific treatment or surgery. Somebody who has undergone gender reassignment is legally considered to be their final gender. It is then unlawful to discriminate against that person on the basis that they have had their gender reassigned. There does become an issue where two protected characteristics clash. I understand you believe that in the cases of changing rooms and sport there is a clash between gender reassignment and sex as protected characteristics. In this case a legal decision is made on the balance of harm. In particular which protected group would be harmed more by “discrimination” against the other. In female competitive sport sex has generally trumped gender reassignment (more harm to sex than there is to gender reassigned individuals). In all other spheres gender reassignment has trumped sex because more harm would be done to gender reassigned individuals. In changing rooms it has been found to be more harmful to transgender individuals to ban them from female or male changing rooms than it is to allow them to use them. It’s been found that there is no realistic prospect of an increase in harm to ciswomen in allowing transwomen to use female toilets or changing rooms whilst there is a significant increase in harm to transwomen in not allowing them to identify as female and use female facilities. This goes back to one of the very first points on this thread. Transgender individuals who can’t or aren’t allowed to identify as their actual gender have rates of attempted suicide of over 40%.
megster Aug 2019 10:19am, 16 Aug 2019 486 posts	0 megster Fetch, I think you make interesting points, and I had kinda got to some of them myself. If then, guidance/law/rules for future sporting events (at all levels) are drawn up by rational people (of all/any sex) then ultimately, what we are looking at is a (two?) separate category(s) for transgender athletes? From following this thread, i don't thing anyone has put forward the argument that transgender athletes should not be allowed to compete, but the practicalities and parity for ALL do need to be considered. As an aside, FWIW, i don't think Jovi is man-bashing - she makes a valid point and it needs to be taken into account that the (vast majority) of decisions being made at top level are (largely) being made by men. Women's sport is still growing but it's being grown by men. At recent MTB Time Trial (organised by men, from our local cycling club where the Chair is male and only the Social Club is run by a woman) I attended, there were 4 women and 30 men - and while the men were friendly, they were gently patronising "well done for turning up" etc - it remains that we are woefully underrepresented in the majority of sport - sorry, I'm digressing, and this is probably a Whole Other Thread. I think what I'm trying to say is that it's about equality - just because I'm at the back of the field in running AND cycling AND mountain biking, doesn't mean I don't compare myself to my age-group (born) female peers. This is my playing field, it should be level. This is not me being bigoted - for balance - I wouldn't want to be comparing my self to a 21-25 age group female either.