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Aug 2019
8:50am, 12 Aug 2019
247 posts
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mascott514
My brain is far too small to be able to offer any decent suggestions to a difficult debate, but I wanted to say thank you too to TR and Vixx.
Ive learn a lot reading this...
whatever the debates, we are talking about fellow runners, fellow human beings, and its important to me that we show support and compassion for all, including our transgender community.
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Aug 2019
8:53am, 12 Aug 2019
42,695 posts
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Velociraptor
Parkrun's claim to be "not a race" would be enhanced if gender (and age) and all the associated rankings were completely removed and participants just got a time. I'd be interested to see what happened to attendance levels in that situation.
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Aug 2019
9:10am, 12 Aug 2019
6,422 posts
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Jovi Runner
I'm really sorry if it does offend people and as I have said on many occassions I have every sympathy and support for people going through the trauma of transitioning but in my mind it is cheating and trans athletes are stealing records from female born women.
Why do we not feel we can offer the same support and compassion for natal women. The link posted on the parkrun page to the support womens sport gives some really good insight into the various stories of how both elite and sub elite women are affected.
It feels like female born women are being thrown under the bus in the drive for inclusivity all the while making sport less inclusive for natal females. There is a reason why sex segragated sport was introduced and to simply say men do not have a physical advantage is denying basic biology. We may as well just have one category and be done with it but that will most certainly be the death of womens sport. I for one will fight tooth and nail to ensure that does not happen.
We can have compassion for individuals whilst still accepting that their physical advantage is unfair to females in sport - their is nothing ant inclusive about that.
I just don't understand why the needs/feelings of transwomen appear to usurp those of natal women. Unless there is a requirement for testosterone to be reduced to female levels (which there evidently isnt at present) ll levels of sub elite running will be affected. I am so pleased I'm not a young girl growing up now - it must be completely demoralising to know that no matter how hard you train there is no hope of you ever being the fastest. It is not just testosterone though that impacts the differences, many of which persist well beyond a lowering of testosterone.
Spekaing to hose women on this thread who do win age category prizes - are you honestly saying you have no concerns that if you were ata prize giving and a transgender athlete stepped up and was "awarded" the prize while you looked on you'd be happy withy that? I honestly just don't understand how as women women can see other women so prejudiced against - it just seems a backward step for womens hard fought right.s.
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Aug 2019
9:29am, 12 Aug 2019
2,983 posts
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Raemond
I think the term you're looking for is cisgender women.
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Aug 2019
9:37am, 12 Aug 2019
6,423 posts
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Jovi Runner
Raemond - There is no such word as cis gender IMO. If we are talking about not offending trans athletes than I find the use of the word cis highly insulting and actually misgendering but in the current world it seems I am regarded as a bigot if I say that & I just have to accept it.
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Aug 2019
9:50am, 12 Aug 2019
42,697 posts
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Velociraptor
Jovi, I would utterly defend your right, and that of other female athletes, to express your feelings about the risk of transwomen batting female athletic records out of the reach of women who have not had the advantages that come with going through a testosterone-mediated puberty, and to use strong words to do so. Women who stand up and make themselves visible on controversial issues that affect women won't please everyone and it's women like you, very able competitive athletes who aren't competing at the elite level where women's sport does have some protection, who are potentially most affected.
As for your last paragraph, I do score the occasional age category prize depending on who turns up to race. I have no more idea or interest in the biological gender or doping status of the handful of much faster women in my age category than I have in whether some of the women above me on the S****a leaderboards are on ebikes. There IS a transwoman who looks around my age who is a member of a local club and takes part in races locally. She's not an outlier in terms of ability and I would applaud her as loudly as anyone if she nudged me off a podium place.
I can't see that it would be practical for every level of racing, and certainly not for parkrun, to be formally policed for gender, and like to think that personal scruples and peer pressure will result in self-moderation at club and county level.
There have been media reports where my instinct, too, has been, "That's taking the piss," but I have to remember that media reports are aimed at evoking an emotional response and the situation is likely to be more complicated than a boy rocking up and deciding to race/fight as a girl.
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Aug 2019
9:51am, 12 Aug 2019
167 posts
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Love Lettuce
I just want to echo my thanks to TR and Vixx for their contributions on this thread. I do really appreciate you sharing your experiences and answering questions 
I don't feel I know enough about this issue to comment much, beyond reflecting Vrap's comment that parkrun is supposed to be an inclusive, free, 5k run; and if records are becoming contentious, maybe it's time that there was less emphasis on positions and course records...
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Aug 2019
9:57am, 12 Aug 2019
6,424 posts
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Jovi Runner
If only it was about parkrun but that is just one element of the larger problem. The Scottish parliament are currently debating whether they will allow self ID which would permit any man to compete as a women just because he says he is one.
As demonstrated by the likes of the Russian doping scandal, Gatlin, Marion Jones etc it is clearly demonstrated the lengths some athletes will go to to gain advantage and take prize money y any means at their disposal. In future if all it took was a declaration that you were a women to be allowed to compete as a one it is hugely naive in my opinion to think that unscrupuous men won't take advantage of that to take prizes in the womens categories. This does nto actually help the genuine transgender person and in fact makes them more likely to be discriminated against.
By protecting women's sport and allowing only female born athletes to compete, perhaps having a separate trans gender category, that is much fairer to everyone and would allow athletes to compete in the class of gender they feel they wish to associate with.
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Aug 2019
10:07am, 12 Aug 2019
2,985 posts
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Raemond
I have a strong suspicion that you're not really interested in learning much or finding a consensus, Jovi, just in beating people about the head with your sense of injustice.
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Aug 2019
10:18am, 12 Aug 2019
6,425 posts
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Jovi Runner
No - as I have said - I'm hugely supportive of people being who they are but as respecting transgender men/women means adhering to the pronouns they wish to use then equally I should be allowed to be able to be respected by being addressed as I choose to be defined and that is a woman not a cis woman.
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