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Jun 2021
2:56pm, 23 Jun 2021
1,773 posts
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auburnette
As a female competitor I'm *extremely* uncomfortable with the idea of racing in category competition against someone with male chromosomes. Inclusivity could involve creating new categories so everyone's achievements can fairly be recognised. It shouldn't involve creating new unfairnesses.
And yes it matters even if only pride is at stake. It's about your achievements being recognised. I don't usually place in races, only when the real speedsters don't turn up. When I do, the wine is crap, it's a voucher or just a little plaque. But it means a lot to me. I also care about my place overall.
If the category essentially became open I think we should start a new category for people with XX chromosomes (and certain non-testosterone responsive DSDs).
Generally I don't think it should make any difference what someone identifies as, how they dress, etc etc. But there are selected circumstances where biological sex is extremely relevant and sport is one of them.
*waits for accusations of transphobia*
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Jun 2021
3:03pm, 23 Jun 2021
1,774 posts
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auburnette
I would add, creating new categories could mean that the achievements of transmen could fairly be recognised. Would require a modification of doping policies at the sharp end because presumably most/all of those transmen will be taking testosterone.
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Jun 2021
3:19pm, 23 Jun 2021
277 posts
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Fopp
Just for clarity, the 'nonsense' I refer to is the fact that men are competing against women in sport, in my view unfairly. To try and justify this is a nonsense to me.
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Jun 2021
3:22pm, 23 Jun 2021
7,170 posts
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paul the builder
Would it kill you to say "transwomen" instead of "men" there?
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Jun 2021
3:27pm, 23 Jun 2021
7,879 posts
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The Great Raemondo
I don't think any of us were unclear on that point, Fopp.
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Jun 2021
3:39pm, 23 Jun 2021
278 posts
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Fopp
Paul, for some reason I am not comfortable with 'transwoman' as a term for another person, I don't like categorising people in this way. It's not intended to deliberately provoke or insult anyone, although I am not oblivious to the fact it might.
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Jun 2021
3:43pm, 23 Jun 2021
7,880 posts
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The Great Raemondo
Recklessness can be sufficient for intent in a legal context, y'know, Foppy.
I'm sad that you're choosing to hurt fellow fetches in this way.
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Jun 2021
3:47pm, 23 Jun 2021
10,408 posts
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jda
Auburnette, how would you know? You quite possibly already have raced against athletes with AIS and XY chromosomes. It’s rare but not vanishingly so.
However “female” is defined for the purposes of athletics, there will always be difficult cases and some people are going to feel unfairly treated according to where the boundary is placed.
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Jun 2021
3:50pm, 23 Jun 2021
279 posts
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Fopp
Offence is taken not given, Raemondo. Who knows by airing my honest views and hearing those of others, my mind could be changed down the line.
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Jun 2021
3:51pm, 23 Jun 2021
1,868 posts
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MsG
Larkim, let's consider the moral rights you describe.
1. Trans women, who have XY chromosomes and are biologically male.
Could compete in men or women category (under specific circumstances). If compete in men category may be at a disadvantage if taking hormones compared to previous performance and non-medicated males. If compete in women's category the studies so far show that the trans women has an unfair advantage.
2. Women, who have XX chromosomes and are biologically female.
Can compete in one category, women. If entering open competition directly against men then at a disadvantage.
For me, the moral balance tips to asserting the rights of women (biological females) to fair competition. The trans woman has two options, one where they are at, I argue, an unfair advantage. Which is the moral choice?
Potentially dismaying and disheartening for the trans woman but I would argue more so for women.
Consider also the long term effects on women's sports. Why get into sport as a girl when this is ahead of you?
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Gender identity, please help change
Jun 2021