Transgender Athletes

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Bazoaxe Jun 2021 1:41pm, 23 Jun 2021 20,113 posts	0 Bazoaxe SPR, in Scotland there is legislation being brought forward that will make self identification easier and without any transition as I understand it. I forget the detail but think its living as the gender you choose for 1 year. This potentially introduces another category of people who are legally recognised as a woman, but have the physical advantages of a man.
The Great Raemondo Jun 2021 1:43pm, 23 Jun 2021 7,878 posts	0 The Great Raemondo The position was for many many years the same as the IOC, MsG, though they have recently bowed to a minority pressure group that cited a very small scale study of non athletes as proof that this was 'unsafe' - despite there being no record of transowmen being involved in injury incidents at a greater rate than cis players. the English RFU originally declined to adopt the new exclusionary policy, but recently opened a consultation about imposing case by case assessments to determine if a trans woman is allowed to play when she exceed an incredibly low height or weight threshold - I forget the exact figures, but I do recall that over half of the current red Roses squad (who are all cis) exceed those measures. Even more worringly, these assessments were supposed to be made by existing club coaches and officials without requiring them to have specific training or any sort of medical qualification.
Vixx Jun 2021 1:45pm, 23 Jun 2021 1,367 posts	0 Vixx Bazoaxe - anyone wishing to compete would still have to follow the set guidelines by the IOC or their individual sporting body.
SPR Jun 2021 1:53pm, 23 Jun 2021 34,551 posts	0 SPR Baz - what Vixx said.
Bazoaxe Jun 2021 1:53pm, 23 Jun 2021 20,114 posts	0 Bazoaxe Is it possible that there could be a legal challenge where someone says that Scotland recognise me as a woman and you cannot prevent me from competing as a woman?
SPR Jun 2021 1:57pm, 23 Jun 2021 34,552 posts	0 SPR Pretty sure Tucker addresses that and the challenge fail on that basis.
larkim Jun 2021 2:11pm, 23 Jun 2021 14,881 posts	0 larkim Different legal jurisdictions will handle that in different ways but it's pretty well established universally that sports can establish their own rules and regulations about participation and, so long as they are done reasonably, so I think that the self-identification issue is a non-issue; it's more of a concern that gets raised as part of the "scare mongering" around the issue I think (though I appreciate Baz you don't raise it in that sort of way). My only direct experience of a MtF woman competing is in my local T&F league where she has variously competed in the male and female events, I suspect for personal reasons around the point in her transition that she was at (though that is supposition on my part). I don't know whether she had made any contact via the League in advance to clarify hers and their position to avoid any disagreements about classification, but it's been notable that it feels like no-one has made anything of a big deal about her. Maybe that's because she is a long way off the best in the female events, even at a pretty low level of competition, or maybe it's because the local participants and officials are sufficiently "progressive" (which would be a huge reassurance to me!).
MsG Jun 2021 2:38pm, 23 Jun 2021 1,867 posts	0 MsG Larkim, there could also be people who are uncomfortable with that athlete competing but are too scared to voice their opinion. It could be fallacious to take silence as agreement. For example I haven't posted in this thread for over two years because the discussion turned quite unpleasant. Outside of this website, Many women have been accused of transphobia for expressing pro-female opinions which in some cases included death threats and attempts to get them fired. Thus it's a subject that many, myself included are probably trying to stay out of. However, the selection of a trans woman for the Olympics is something I feel quite strongly is very unfair to the woman denied a place and those competitors who will unfair competition. Someone raised the point that this isn't addressing trans athletes or centering them in the debate. I would argue that as this has a direct effect on women's sports that discussing the rights and views of women is relevant.
Bazoaxe Jun 2021 2:46pm, 23 Jun 2021 20,116 posts	0 Bazoaxe larkim, I didnt intend to scaremonger with my comment although I do hold my hands up to having had some concerns around what is proposed in Scotland. However I asked my wife and daughter (23) how they felt about the proposals and their complete ambivalence to the question made me reconsider how I felt. When it comes to sport though I am with MsG's post above and there are two groups, at least one of whom will be potentially disadvantaged if trans athletes complete as women. Clearly this is only an issue at the sharp end though and is largely irrelevant in any other races unless any of the prize spots are impacted. Even then does it matter over a £20 voucher or a bottle of wine ? I am very much a mid pack male finisher. I finish slightly ahead of my sister in law and she more often that not is one of the female prize winners.
larkim Jun 2021 2:55pm, 23 Jun 2021 14,882 posts	0 larkim The moral question for me is whether the moral "right" of the woman denied a place at the Olympics trumps the moral "right" of an athlete like Laurel to take her place. As I said in my earlier post, I can see both sides of this if the woman denied was my sister vs if Laurel was my sister. In other aspects of life, where a group which has been disadvantaged through institutional rules, regulations and behaviours there has been a, sometimes reluctant, tolerance that (say) a woman has been appointed to a position (e.g. parliamentary selection by the Labour party) which has denied a perfectly capable man from the opportunity. But I don't think the trans athlete conundrum is quite the same. This isn't positive discrimination to "allow" an athlete like Laurel to achieve a place. This is accepting that there is straightforward understanding that Laurel is a woman and therefore her chance to earn a place is the same as any other woman's.