Transgender Athletes

97 watchers

Fopp Jun 2021 9:44am, 23 Jun 2021 273 posts	0 Fopp I suspect the four legged animal does most of the heavy lifting when it comes to horsey sports. Doesn't work that way in wokelifting.
jda Jun 2021 9:57am, 23 Jun 2021 10,406 posts	0 jda Rowing coxes are no longer segregated as with their crew, this changed only recently (2017) at the highest level though was already the case a long time ago in many lower level competitions. No physical demands other than a loud voice (not even that with amplifiers these days)
RooA Jun 2021 10:01am, 23 Jun 2021 1,206 posts	0 RooA I suspect (hypothesising) with long ultra races women are marginally better at managing without sleep when required (thinking evolutionary child rearing heritage here) plus the physical speed differences are evened out by a greater emphasis on sheer mental resilience (which I imagine is not sexually distributed particularly, not inherently anyway). More skill sports could probably be mixed sex and still fair. It'd have to be carefully unpicked though as to whether any physiological inherent sex differences were at play or not. (I'm thinking things like arm length and reach and possible visual differences, and whether those things make enough of a difference.) There's certainly some hangovers of historical sexism in some sports segregation but it is important to maintain women's sports as a separate entity where is IS relevant for fair and safe competition. Which is most sports. I don't think you can (ethically) hobble the born male body enough to allow fair competition with born female bodies in most sports. So either you exclude transwomen from women's sports (not all sports, the women's "handicap class" in sports) or you accept that women's competition might not be fair. I'm sorry to be blunt but in this instance the rights of two groups clash and we have to pick.
-Monty- Jun 2021 10:24am, 23 Jun 2021 1,564 posts	0 -Monty- All transgender athletes please leave the room while the grown ups decide what your fate is - again. I'm sorry but has anyone actually talked to a trans female/male and asked them how their sports performance has changed pre and post transition?? Or has everyone made their mind up from the various surveys, podcasts or whatever that hardly includes any transgender athletes opinions?
CumbriAndy Jun 2021 11:36am, 23 Jun 2021 2,461 posts	0 CumbriAndy -Monty- It's a fair question and you're obviously correct that the opinions and experiences of transgender athletes have to be considered as progress is made. I seem to recall that in one of the threads (can't remember which one or who posted it) that somebody posted that their 'athletic capability' following M-F transition had diminished in both absolute and relative terms. I may have that wrong in detail but the point was that the effect of transitioning upon performance is less predictable than the simplistic arguments, often based around the anecdotal 'evidence' of particular individuals transitioning from 'average male' to 'world leading female', suggest. The challenge society in general, and sport in particular, has going forward in this area is that there is so much that we simply don't yet know.
Vixx Jun 2021 11:40am, 23 Jun 2021 1,362 posts	0 Vixx I notice nobody is mentioning this, despite this being from June 4th: bbc.co.uk She has actually competed in a European Para-Athletics Championships already and is hoping to also qualify for Tokyo. Does it not matter because she is a para-athlete? At the moment, I may feel a little cynical and completely agree with Monty's comment above. A blog is brewing.
larkim Jun 2021 11:42am, 23 Jun 2021 14,874 posts	0 larkim That's the nub of the issue -Monty-. Whether I morally like it or not (because my moral starting point is to ensure access to competition for all athletes, irrespective of gender or trans background) there is an impact on the 99% of other athletes and participants too. So it matters what trans athletes think, of course (goes without saying!). But it does also matter what the rest of the competitors think too. I'd hope that if I was a trans MtF athlete I would be able to look at the physiological issues around fairness and safety and conclude that there were challenges to be addressed if I was competing, particularly at a high level. But if there are challenges, better to discuss and examine them in a cool and calm way. Comments like Fopp's above are utterly unhelpful and deliberately trolling the issue ("wokelifting"). I can see that non-trans athletes (and non-athletes) discussing it can come across as akin to "mansplaining", but I've already pointed out that I'm conflicted on this and want to learn more, hence the links to the info. The podcast in particular I think is a pretty level headed analysis of some "science", and whilst it might be the case that science isn't where the answer lies, I do think it's worth skilling us non-trans observers with the info to help us gain insights from both the "data" side of things as well as the more moral / emotional side of things.
larkim Jun 2021 11:45am, 23 Jun 2021 14,875 posts	0 larkim Thanks for the link Vixx - I read that at the time and concluded along the lines that you posted - as a para athlete she wasn't going to get the publicity and generate the same debate as an non-para athlete.
Fopp Jun 2021 11:46am, 23 Jun 2021 274 posts	0 Fopp I think with ultra running the difference is partly disguised by the lack of depth in the elite level so if it were a big sport the differences would be more consistent. That's not to say it isn't closer than other sports.
Fopp Jun 2021 11:52am, 23 Jun 2021 275 posts	0 Fopp Oh and Larks, don't take it all so seriously, the majority of people just find it all utterly ridiculous. The trouble with progressive attitudes is they don't know when to stop.