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Jan 2020
12:59pm, 14 Jan 2020
6,701 posts
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paul the builder
Tommy - first, apologies. I had only Stander's casual post immediately below yours in mind as I wrote mine. The idea that Ireland might ever wish to be joined at the hip with Britain again is obviously hilarious. They weren't keen on it the first time, as everyone knows.
I understand you were only asking a question to understand Mike's position further. Sorry for any confusion.
Mike - hope you don't feel you have to step out. I find much of where discussions on these subjects end up to be unpleasant and confrontational too; but I see it coming from all (both?) sides and angles. Example - to be so fiercely unionist as to insist that the UK borders must *never* change is no less an extreme view, IMHO, than those who insist on independence now for Scotland, or re-unification of Ireland. It's complicated.
To respond to something lark said about 'feeling' - I think it's possible, and even perfectly rational, to feel multiple 'allegiances' here. You said you really just felt British, and that's OK for you. But I feel simultaneously English, British and European. That's just me. And that's OK too.
You also said earlier that NI "isn't a country by any definition in any event". Which is ballsy, to say the least. 
Not quite sure what you meant by it, but there are certainly an awful lot of people who consider their identity to be "Northern Irish" first. And that's not always an easy stance to take (witness Rory McIlroy's travails about identity, nationality, Olympic representation etc.), but these things aren't really by choice are they? They're more by gut, I think.
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Jan 2020
1:02pm, 14 Jan 2020
15,754 posts
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Bazoaxe
larkim has done his best to demonstrate why many people want independence and actually that view could push me towards that way of thinking.
While I agree that Scotland should have the right to determine its own future:
1) Scotland did determine its own future when it voted for devolution and again when it voted against independence
2) If the right to self determine was given to holyrood, we would just keep voting until the SNP get the answer the want. I think there would need to be some parameters around when a new vote can be held.
While I agree that if we did become independence, there is an opportunity for parties to rise from the ashes and re-form. However I think its delusional to say the SNP will disappear and leave it to these new parties to govern. The first Scottish government would be headed by the SNP at the very least and given the mess in the other parties I think the SNP would also be re-elected at the first time of asking. Presumably we would have such a vote shortly after independence. I don't see the SNP ever disbanding and I haven't seen them say they will.
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Jan 2020
1:04pm, 14 Jan 2020
15,755 posts
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Bazoaxe
Excuse my ignorance, but from whom did Norway become independent from ? I feel embarrassed to ask that but genuinely don't know.
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Jan 2020
1:05pm, 14 Jan 2020
15,756 posts
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Bazoaxe
Hm, was part of Denmark and then Sweden.......never knew that.
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Jan 2020
1:17pm, 14 Jan 2020
3,462 posts
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mr d
Forgive my ignorance, but isn't the United kingdom a Union of countrys not regions?
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Jan 2020
1:24pm, 14 Jan 2020
6,703 posts
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paul the builder
Nah, if that were true there would be some sort of clue. Like a hybrid flag, say
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Jan 2020
1:28pm, 14 Jan 2020
15,757 posts
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Bazoaxe
I’ve always felt sorry for wales as they missed out on the flag sharing.
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Jan 2020
1:29pm, 14 Jan 2020
19,046 posts
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DeeGee
Technically correct. However, it depends on your definition of a country.
England and Scotland have reasonable claims to be considered a country, and those two crowns are the ones that were united.
Northern Ireland has never existed as a sovereign entity in its own right, and the current border of Northern Ireland as I understand it doesn't properly correspond to the traditional province of Ulster.
Wales was just a series of territories overseen by warlords. A united Wales within its defined borders never really existed, although they are a "people" with their own flag language.
If that is able to define a country, then Cornwall must also have a reasonable claim as well.
But to be honest, on the whole, any country is merely the outcome of a centuries'-long real-life game of Shag, Marry, Kill.
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Jan 2020
1:39pm, 14 Jan 2020
4,097 posts
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Raemond
I feel sorry for the UK, missing out on the awesomeness of the draig goch on their butcher's apron, Bazo
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Jan 2020
1:45pm, 14 Jan 2020
9,999 posts
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larkim
LOL, I sincerely hope no-one finds my views on Scottish independence personally offensive - they might not be well formed views or survive the test of proper scrutiny, but they are things that I currently have thought through to my own satisfaction.
Ref NI and "not a country". The currently bordered region of Counties that form Northern Ireland has never been a sovereign state in its own right since about the 12th century I believe. In medeival times there were kings of Ulster I believe, but (as I learned on this thread) Ulster <> Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is best described as a province, isn't it? I don't pretend to be well versed in the history of NI though.
"Country" is a thoroughly confusing concept, when 99% of the time country = sovereign state.
Can it ever be that Scotland is not a country? Or (a better example) if nothing changed in the administrative arrangements that are currently in place, would Wales ever cease to be a country? In 100 years? In 500 years? In 1000 years?
It is easy to forget how much the borders across the world that we recognise today are not the same as they were just 100 years ago, and even moreso 200 years ago - Europe though tends to refer to places as "principalities" or "states" or "city states" rather than "country". Even "Kingdoms" weren't necessarily "countries". Which is why I have something of an issue with Scotland, Wales etc continuing to be referred to as "countries" as if that gives those particular entities a higher status than other areas which formerly had a monarchy but are now referred to as "states" of other countries (sic!).
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