Jan 2020
10:51am, 14 Jan 2020
9,991 posts
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larkim
Well if they (not me) didn't "allow it" they would "prevent it". But I'll take that one on the chin, a more appropriate phrase would have been to actively "recognise" the right of self determination. It matters not one jot whether I do or don't (though my opinion is that I don't!).
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Jan 2020
11:02am, 14 Jan 2020
6,115 posts
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jda
Or they might just recognise that it's not their business. We didn't ask the EU for permission for the brexit referendum, any more than we asked the USA or UN. Which is just one example of the substantial differences between the unions of the (top-down, England first) UK and the (horizontal, equal say on major matters) EU.
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Jan 2020
11:27am, 14 Jan 2020
19,045 posts
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DeeGee
Although the EU did get extremely pissy about Catalan self-determination, even despite their protestations not to get involved in domestic matters.
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Jan 2020
11:29am, 14 Jan 2020
191 posts
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Stander
Breaking News. Sturgeon told to go do one. No second referendum. |
Jan 2020
11:31am, 14 Jan 2020
60,273 posts
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swittle
For info.: bbc.co.uk
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Jan 2020
11:38am, 14 Jan 2020
9,993 posts
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larkim
That's not a fair comparison by any stretch though (EU membership vs composition of the UK). It can never be the case, surely, that a sovereign state should say that self determination of a part of it's current make up is "not their business". It very clearly is - collectively as the UK we share resources, intrastructure etc. I don't give a monkey's whether my taxes are spent investing in Cornwall, Cheshire, Shetland, Pembrokeshire, Fermanagh - we're all in the same boat, I support my fellow countrymen across my country without question (though without any sense of patriotism etc, I don't need or want to see the UK demonstrating superiority over any other nation). Countries secede from others through violent internal warfare or through demoncratic means. The former is usually done without the sovereign state's consent, the latter does require consent - it's not patronising to say that the UK govt has a view about the right of those living in Scotland to self determine, and that it has a role in approving / aquiescing to any democratic processes which may lead to independence, because the alternative is for those living in Scotland is to be agreeing to participate in the shared exploits of running and operating the soverign state of the UK. There is undoubteldy a huge issue of Englishness and a patronising view that England knows best and Scotland should do what it's told. I honestly don't think I'm part of that view though, but that might just be me fooling myself. Let me put it differently - if the UK govt didn't recognise Scottish rights to self determination, and the Scottish independence movement had no access to a UK democratic process to achieve independence, would the case for Scottish independence be supported by international tribunals in the way that nations which were formerly colonised have been supported? I'm not convinced it would pass the same tests unless the voting population of Scotland could demonstrate a coherent voice advocating for self determination. In the same way that I am pro European membership, I believe the UK is stronger together, but with the right levels of devolution of powers out from the "centre" the strength of that union can be felt beneficially throughout the UK - in Scotland just as much as in the rest of the UK. So it disappoints me that the UK hasn't made that work well enough to persuade large numbers of those living in Scotland that the currently composed UK is the better body to be a part of. |
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Jan 2020
11:51am, 14 Jan 2020
202 posts
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TommyK
If the UK Government truly recognised The Scottish People's right to self-determination they'd permanently devolve the right to hold a referendum to our democratically elected Parliament, instead of refusing permission.
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Jan 2020
11:53am, 14 Jan 2020
8,349 posts
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simbil
Sturgeon will have fully expected to be told to 'do one' by BoJo, I don't think this is any setback at all for the case of Scottish independence.
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Jan 2020
11:53am, 14 Jan 2020
2,565 posts
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TomahawkMike
Yep, I agree with all that. If you were borne in the UK, in any of the home countries, why should you suddenly find that the one place on Earth that you can truly call home suddenly shrinks because of a political party taking advantage of brexit as a reason to go it alone.
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Jan 2020
11:54am, 14 Jan 2020
2,566 posts
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TomahawkMike
(I should say .. as a reason to try and go it alone again)
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