Transgender Athletes

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auburnette Sep 2023 5:44pm, 21 Sep 2023 2,132 posts	0 auburnette Probably regret getting dragged into this debate as usual but I don't know why parkrun can't drop the result tables, course records, reporting into runbritainrankings which in turn encourages roundups in places like fast running, if it genuinely is an individual time trial with no comparison to others or a social run in a park. Actually I do know why -the answer is because they tread an uneasy line between inclusive activity and competition and getting rid of the competitive element would massively reduce parkruns appeal. The competitive aspect of parkrun is flawed, there's probably all sorts of issues with the results. Some parkruns aren't 5k long (my own parkrun PB, where coincidentally I was first woman, is from a short course and I don't consider it a 5k PB). For some results there would have been misclassification or cheating or assistance. There have been parkrun course records broken by runners with dogs. How that has been handled has been variable but there has often been debate about whether the record was valid or not. Parkrun has not really got involved with that debate and probably deliberately so. Equally I know many female runners who care strongly about parkrun and their result in the context to others. I know I get a warm glow when I have (rarely) managed to finish first woman. I probably stand no chance ever of a course record unless it's event number 1 but I can imagine that being a source of pride too. So I do feel uneasy that some course records are held by trans women. I can also understand that if you were female and keen on the competitive part of parkrun you might well feel aggrieved by unfair competition, much in the same way that plenty of men have complained about fast times set by other men with the assistance of dogs! I've also had a man complain at me that I was being assisted (which frankly, I was) back in the day when I was running with my dog. In my head I was just out for a run with my dog and wasn't trying to run a time or compete with anyone that day. I do find it hypocritical when parkrun's response is "we are not a race, this is about inclusivity" because if that were really so, you could dispense with all the ranking data etc and just provide participants with an individual time and age grading, without displaying them in any sort of comparative results format. For the reasons above I don't think parkrun will ever do this because competition IS a part of parkrun's appeal, even if a non serious and non policed/regulated type of competition. Ultimately it's their rules and you're sort of signing up to it when you choose to do parkrun, imperfection and all. I do agree that if you go to parkrun expecting perfect competition then you're probably looking for the wrong thing there. Because of the type of organisation parkrun is and the way it toes that line between social participation and competition, this will probably not change.
larkim Sep 2023 9:42am, 22 Sep 2023 22,050 posts	0 larkim That's really clear and helpful auburnette. Echos many of the thoughts that come into my mind when trying to balance out the issue. And as a male I'm clearly inherently biased because my 10th position in a parkrun will always be 10th finisher, and the context of discounting a large number of runners in the placing because of gender simply doesn't feature. And it is the dual identity of parkrun that causes the issues, because if parkrun is whatever you want it to be from an individual perspective, then that cascades over into the way you see the world on issues such as inclusivity of trans people in athletics results. Removing all age and gender ratings on parkrun results would annoy far more people, I suspect, than having a trans woman topping the table. But if that's the only solution, then the strong advocates for the women's position are unable to get any wins.
jda Sep 2023 11:23am, 22 Sep 2023 15,475 posts	0 jda Does anyone really care about the position and records etc at parkruns? I run hard sometimes and am usually somewhere at the pointy end but my handful of first finishes just means no one decent turned up that week. I certainly compare my time to my own previous performances but I’m rarely even aware of the age group record.
MsG Sep 2023 11:36am, 22 Sep 2023 2,556 posts	0 MsG jda - a look in the parkrun threads, at challenges etc, shows you that people do care a lot. Larkim - have you never had a woman finish ahead of you in any race?
AJLB Sep 2023 11:51am, 22 Sep 2023 429 posts	0 AJLB As someone whose work severely restricts my ability to get to races, parkrun does fill a competitive void in my running, so I do care about results (I was inordinately pleased when I took the outright (male) first finisher total at my local parkrun). Larkim - I'm pretty fast, but have been beaten at 5k, 5mile and marathon by women.
larkim Sep 2023 12:01pm, 22 Sep 2023 22,053 posts	0 larkim Yes, MsG, lots of times I'm beaten by a woman no matter where I finish and in just about every race. But as a man being beaten by anyone is a fair and square take down by a human being faster than me for a variety of reasons so if I'm 10th I don't think "well, it's 9th really because the 4th placed finisher isn't in my gender category". For a woman, being beaten by a man is a function of inherent male characteristics (and then obviously the relative "talent" or other genetic dispositions / training that make that person faster). So 10th overall for a woman where she is also 1st female is rightly viewed as 1st. I don't particularly care about age group position (though it is "nice" to be top v50M on the few occasions where that is true) but I know a lot of people do look at that. That's true for all races for me; like jda I'm more about the absolute time for me, I can't control who else turns up. Removing all references to age and gender from results would mean age grading goes out of the window (and I do look at that), and maybe there's a way of making that private to individuals only without publishing it? Perhaps that's a way forward - the results are published from position 1 to position nnn with no age or gender info, but then in your results email and in a private view of your own results you can see your relative placement / age grade? I don't think I'd like that overall, but I could see it as something of a workable compromise (though if you were 2nd female beaten by a self-reported trans woman your private view would still show you were 2nd, and therefore the issue that MY and others have wouldn't be properly addressed).
auburnette Sep 2023 12:38pm, 22 Sep 2023 2,133 posts	0 auburnette Parkrun could for example have an opt in to a competitive view of results (actively require opt in) with the associated expectation that if you are opting in to that aspect you are signing up to compete in correctly declared categories/without canine assistance/without cutting the course etc etc. In practice I suspect it's not really possible to do this as many people vary how seriously they're taking from week to week and even once they've started running. Basically it's only an issue because there's a blurred line about whether parkrun is a competition or not and they say they're not a race while simultaneously displaying many of the features of racing/competition. I think the solution is less clear than it is in formal UKA competition where the expectation is rightly one of fairness.
RooA Sep 2023 1:03pm, 22 Sep 2023 2,276 posts	0 RooA Are parkrun WAVAs calculated using parkrun data or are they done using wider data? I ask because my parkrun WAVA is different than the Fetch WAVA. If it is "just" a time trial, and that is part of the justification for the compromised competitive offering to female runners, then technically a list of names in alphabetical order with times next to them is the only way to be internally consistent with that policy. As auburnette says though I do think that would lessen the appeal for a chunk of runners but perhaps not enough to actually stop them going. I get much more value out of parkrun than even just a timed run with other people. But the current situation offers a slightly different overall thing to male and female athletes. In the interests of allowing a group of people to self-identify and be validated. That's the choice parkrun has made. Whatever the impact of that is, (for example, it might be quite demotivating for some, especially girls just starting out perhaps), it is going to disproportionately affect female runners. I'd support it being an actual time trial for me, I like occasionally being first lady but am under no illusion that that really means anything given how skimpy the field of runners has to be for me to get it, but what the wider impact of that decision would be I don't know. Whichever way things go you're potentially putting one or more groups off from parkrunning. Athletes motivated by competition not getting any comp data, female runners not getting fair comp data, transgender and non-binary runners not getting to express their identity fully or not feeling comfortable running at all because they have to see, and have others see, their sex on the results or they have to run HC if that could be/is an option. Someone takes the hit. Currently it is women not getting fair data and records and stuff. Unfortunately it is a "pick one" situation again. Depends who you think should be expected to suck it up. Interesting point about dog running from auburnette too. Parkrun isn't necessarily fair competition for anyone really if you can be dog-assisted and set records... but again, more so for female runners who are affected by both dog runners and males. It's that imbalance.
Ultracat Sep 2023 1:07pm, 22 Sep 2023 15,040 posts	0 Ultracat Interesting debate about Parkrun. I believe Parkrun results in France are recorded differently to get round the need for a medical certificate in competitive races.
larkim Sep 2023 1:24pm, 22 Sep 2023 22,054 posts	0 larkim RooA parkrun WAVA is outdated, it uses "old" tables which were current when parkrun came about but haven't followed the updates that sites like Fetch use. I've raised this on other threads, I can see why parkrun don't update as it would confuse the hell out of most parkrunners, but it is slightly annoying that once upon a time all websites were pretty much in line, and now parkrun looks like a real outlier (the gaps between their wava and fetch wava are variable and depend on your age and gender; some combos are still pretty close, others are a few points out). Ultracat parkrun is currently suspended in France because that old appeasement of not putting the results in order is no longer "flying" as a route to avoid the need for the medical certificate for competitive events.