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Feb 2014
2:35pm, 16 Feb 2014
6,362 posts
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Bazoaxe
Davie, you are much better informed on this subject than I.
I am in the if it aint broke, dont fix it camp and at present I dont see anything that tells me we need to change or that convinces me that we will be better off as a result.
The main bit I dont get is why Salmond wants to remanin in a currency union to retain the pound. Surely if he wants independence, he wants full independence and if he retains the pound then he isnt getting all of what he wants. Part of me thinks its a cynical ploy as he believes voters are more likely to vote yes if they keep the pound.
The current position of the UK and EU is all bluff and bluster seems to me to be ignoring two significant challenges rather than winning me over in the argument about why he is right.
Salmond needs to work a lot harder to convince me to vote yes than he is doing....and at present you are putting forward a better case than he does 
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Feb 2014
3:34pm, 16 Feb 2014
466 posts
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K5 Gus
The next UK general election is May 2015, the next Scottish parliamentary election is May 2016.
If Scotland votes Yes this year, then does that mean that all Scottish constituency MPs are kicked out of Westminster in 2016 ? If so, will they not find it hard to find people to stand in the UK elections for Scottish constituencies in 2015 if the job is only for a year ? You'd imagine all the decent and ambitious ones will want to become MSPs the following year ? Or could they be a UK MP for a year, then "resign" and immediately stand as an MSP ( assuming they were selected by their Scottish party ) ? You can imagine some pretty pi$$ed off current MSPs not being selected to stand for re-election to make way for bigger name UK MPs coming back to Scotland. eg you'd imagine the Libs would find a fairly safe seat for Danny Alexander, etc, etc
If the kicking out of Scottish MPs from Westminster in 2016 means a change in majority ( even though daviec thinks it should have no effect ) then they might need to have another rUK general election in 2016 just a year after - but we'll know this right away in 2015 when we see the numbers.
I don't suppose any of this will sway how anyone votes, but just some random thought on what could happen in practice
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Feb 2014
3:38pm, 16 Feb 2014
6,363 posts
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Bazoaxe
If we vote yes in Sept 2014 though, would we be voting in UK elections in 2015 ? I know actual Independence wont happen immediately on a yes vote, but woudl seem odd us voting for a government that will not have authority for long...
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Feb 2014
3:44pm, 16 Feb 2014
467 posts
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K5 Gus
I assumed we would, as would be a bit strange for 10% of the population to have no representation at parliament for a year, but maybe I've misunderstood
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Feb 2014
4:04pm, 16 Feb 2014
7,706 posts
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Son of a Pronator Man
I expect that will be one of the details of the post-Yes negotiations. Which could be very nasty indeed. How about a narrow majority for the No's, an inconclusive 2015 Westminster election with the SNP able to turn the screw on a minority party that wants to form a Givernment ?
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Feb 2014
11:00pm, 16 Feb 2014
1,806 posts
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HappyTimes
Baz the downfall regards "if it ain't broke don't fix it" is you stand still while others smash it to pieces and start over again with the chance to move forward and progress.
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Feb 2014
11:20pm, 16 Feb 2014
4,128 posts
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Debstir
I'm stll waiting on my copy of the white paper coming through so I can maybe make a slightly more informed decision...
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Feb 2014
11:27pm, 16 Feb 2014
3,714 posts
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daviec
Whilst it's just a matter of opinion Baz, in my opinion it is broken I'm afraid. Maybe not for me and you, but there are plenty of people for whom it just doesn't work. Vilified for not having a job, or being too ill, too old, too poor, and so on. This is a country run by people who think it's OK for the tax payers to pay back billions of pounds (my children and theirs will still be paying this off) given to private companies to pay their debts to other private companies and we stood back and watched as the directors of said companies awarded themselves six and seven figure bonuses for our trouble. Meanwhile there are working families having to use food banks to survive. Forget the propaganda of benefit street and the likes. There are very few people at the extremes that are simply playing the system and yet our government is using them to have us back them as they cut off the lifeline and safety net we'd all like to think would be there if our circumstances changed for the worse. The child poverty action group says that Westminster policies (again it doesn't matter if it's labour or tories, they have agreed the same cuts) will mean a further 200,000 children will be born into poverty in Scotland. A country which would sit 8th in the world for GDP per capita shouldn't not have that level of poverty.
What about our 'democratic' system? Is it not broken. You can't fit a pound note sideways between the "3" parties in Westminster. The fact that lib dems can easily form a coalition with the tories or labour is not because they lack principles (although they do obviously) it's because there's literally no difference between them. Our vote once every 5 years means nothing other than what tie the clown we call PM will wear. It's a total sham. And don't even start me on the unelected house of lords.
Economically we pay a bigger share into the treasury than we get shared back to us. Our deficit is lower than the rest of the UK and yet we get told we're subsidy junkies, reliant on hand outs from Westminster. Yet we pay £3 billion for UK defence, but only £1.5 billion gets spent in Scotland, defence cuts have hit Scotland harder than anywhere else, and when a Russian ship entered Scottish waters a few months back it took 24 hours for a Navy ship to "scramble" from Portsmouth and intercept. £4 billion of our money goes to pay UK debt repayments, and yet Scotland has no power to raise debt and works within budget every year. And of course there's part of our money which is spent by Westminster "on our behalf": things that benefit the whole nation, such as HS2, the London Underground, and so on. Also you've to take into account that most companies operating in Scotland register a London address for VAT purposes etc. So a shit load of cash that is raised in Scotland gets accounted elsewhere. We are getting fucked over left, right and centre (or should that be right, right and right).
I could go on. I'd prefer to look forward with confidence and hope that we can change all of that, at least in Scotland. Minor things like what currency we'll use will be sorted out in time. Have you heard of any countries that went independent and then had to bail because they just didn't have their currency sorted out? It's a ridiculous distraction. I have no doubt that the first few years will be challenging, but we will get through it and in the long run I simply can't get past the fact that it just makes sense that decisions that affect Scotland should be made IN Scotland for our benefit.
No anti-English sentiment, no Braveheart shite, no Alex Salmond hero worship. This is plain and simply about what's best for me, my kids, and the people I live, love and work with.
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Feb 2014
10:55am, 17 Feb 2014
7,470 posts
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Boab
Davie you've highlighted some very key parts of the broken Scotland, echoed across the uk and to be fair across the western world. But I still don't see any answers coming out of hollyrood, the keys questions are not being answered. People need the answers now, I am way too risk averse to say yes to Indy and then work it out. In my line of work that is always a recipe for a fuck up.
While salmond is a great politician the keys items are not being addressed. The welfare state, immigration, defense, health, tax! The white paper is a wish list, pure and simple, and we all know we don't always get what we wish for.
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Feb 2014
10:56am, 17 Feb 2014
70,110 posts
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santababy
lol@ davie putting forward a better case that Salmond
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