Dear Scottish Fetchies

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Bazoaxe Feb 2014 6:20pm, 10 Feb 2014 6,350 posts	0 Bazoaxe davie, I still think you need to weigh up if those that would be in power here (SNP or otherwise) are able to make better decisions than those in Westminster. Much as I have distatse for Westminster politicians, I am yet to be convinced that those in Scotland are any more competent. If I felt competent people here would make decisions based on our own priorities and that were for our benefit then I may consider voting yes.
santababy Feb 2014 6:33pm, 10 Feb 2014 70,081 posts	0 santababy all comes down to that we all think all politicians are the same? I've been against it for ages tbh but I'm coming round to a yes vote at mo
daviec Feb 2014 11:49pm, 10 Feb 2014 3,707 posts	0 daviec It's not about their ability though Baz. I honestly don't have a problem with Westminster per se, but it's fairly obvious that with limited spending power they are going to spend it where it gives them the most benefit (ie wins votes) and that is the SE/London. A Scottish government may not make 'better' decisions, but they will be a whole lot more relevant. There's also the fact that the Scottish parliament is a good deal more representative, not just because of PR/constituency voting, but because it's not full of millionaires. If you look at the decisions that have been made here that have a direct corollary in the rest of the UK and those that have been promised that would be different, eg creeping privitisation of NHS, continued hounding of those on disability/benefits/low income, bedroom tax, pensions age rising towards the point where the average Scot won't even live long enough to see a pension, privatisation of the Postal service, illegal wars, keeping weapons of mass destruction, and so on. There are plenty of good politicians in Scotland. And like him or loathe him Salmond is very good at what he does. I'm not particularly a fan of the guy (who'd be a fan of any politician) but I'm beginning to tire of hearing him get slagged. He's done a good job as have the Scottish government despite Westminster. I think that a Scottish Government with a strong SNP, and a proper Labour party divorced from the London puppeteers, would make the right decisions for Scotland. And even if they don't, we'll only have ourselves to blame, not another country's government.
Jambomo Feb 2014 7:06am, 11 Feb 2014 4,187 posts	0 Jambomo I have heard lots of people saying, similar to Bazoaxe, about wanting some proof that Scottish MPs are more competent which is fair enough. Consider though that the current Scottish Goverment has, with the power it does have, served us pretty well in general since it's formation, whilst Westminster consistently seem to do which seem utterly bizarre (I.e bedroom tax and that anti-immigration stuff) and act incompetently and without much concern about Scotland (or let's be honest Wales, or anyone North of London). Let's face it no politicians will ever get it all right or all wrong but for me I think my decision is based on the fact that Westminster is far to often wrong or doesn't give a toss so it's time to try something else.
jono Feb 2014 8:53am, 11 Feb 2014 14,718 posts	0 jono so you won't be joining NATO then Daviec? and whilst I agree totally with the silly military expedition to Iraq since 1945 I would say most of our wars have been justified - well thats if you can accept War as justifible, which is a whole different discussion. I suppose Jambomo that many in Scotland feel the same as Americans do - they think Washignton is too far away / disconnected - the difference with the US though is that they have strong state,County or city legislators - and thats whats missing from the UK. Strong country wide representation for the people of the individual nations - things need to change and improve.
HappyG(rrr) Feb 2014 9:28am, 11 Feb 2014 21,767 posts	0 HappyG(rrr) Ooh, only just seen this thread. Daviec, some really well explained points. Thank you. And well done to everyone for managing to stay reasonable and calm on what could be a rather emotive and inflammatory topic! Surely the big thing about all the unknowns and the fears is that it can all be worked out over the years and decades to come? If we're a separate country, then all major international bodies: NATO, EU, UN would just accept it and either choose to include us or not (mostly not, considering our size!). Anything which is borderline between Scotland and RestOUK will just have to be negotiated. It's what countries do. Sure, it might not be efficient, but no form of governance is efficient. But it is effective. I like our parliament - it's modern, open and accessible. It's less adversarial than Westminster. It's more representative (Davie - do you have stats: what's the breakdown of men/women, age, ethnic groups etc. in our parliament vs. Westminster. Is it more representative or is that just rose tinted specs on my part?) The committees are great: you can rock up, as a member of the public and view a committee meetings. scottish.parliament.uk Anyhoo, I'm hoping for a Yes. I'm an optimistic soul. :-)G
Wirral Dave Feb 2014 10:40am, 11 Feb 2014 111 posts	0 Wirral Dave You can get information of the diversity of candidates here: guardian.co.uk Looking at the candidates, rather than the outcome, in many ways make more sense as the Scottish Parliament is designed to let more women and ethnic minority candidates get through the party system. The full spreadsheet allows you to break the demographics down by party and you see that although the Greens are roughly split between the sexes, the bais towards men is 2:1 for Labour and Lib Dem; 3:1 for the SNP and 5.5:1 for the Tories. There isn't a large inclusion of ethnic minority candidates, with no party having a higher proportion of candidates than voters from a minority background. I'd include the sexuality issue as it's assuming if people aren't openly homosexual they are heterosexual. But overall, although there are attempts to be more inclusive, it isn't. It's good that the Parliament is attempting to address the bias issues, but it cannot alone stop politics being dominated by white middle-age middle-class men. For instance, why are council elections still run using a system the Parliamentary elections view as outdated? The biggest question for me is what political parties would exist in an Independent Scotland. Labour would obviously do well and be able to move back to representing the traditional working class, rather than Southern Englanders who it needs to appeal to if it wants to win elections. But what of the rest? The SNP would have no real place in an independent Scotland - at the moment it's a combination of the anti-English brigade (who would vote for the SNP regardless) mixed with a left-wing ethos (stealing the Labour protest votes); would the anti-English brigade vote for an SNP which was essentially like the BNP, and would the left-wing voters liking the policies just go back to Labour once the neo-liberalism agenda was dropped? The biggest change I'd imagine would be with the Tories, who could change their name and rebrand as a party unconnected to Thatcher, but with a right-of-centre pro-business ethos which would get it many votes in the richer communities (both urban and rural). I truly believe that an independent Scotland will, within 20 years, have a neo-Tory party governing it as it's not going to simply became a one-party Labour state. Admittedly 'Tory Scotland' would be more Blairism than Thatcherism/Cameronism, but we will see some current Conservative MSPs being cabinet ministers at some point. I don't think the debate is helped at all by thinking the parties in the Scottish Parliament in 2024 will be the same as those in 2014. It would be better if those parties were focused on Scottish voters, not forced to embrace English votes in a Scottish Parliament, but there needs to be much more debate about what political parties would exist in an independent Scotland.
Jambomo Feb 2014 11:20am, 11 Feb 2014 4,189 posts	0 Jambomo I don't know if its possible to know what political parties will be in an Independent Scotland as often these arise out of politics at the time and the politics of Scotland will mean that even exisiting parties may change and may not be recognisabvle from what they are now. Any disussion now might be totally different from the reality. The tories barely exist in Scotland so I think this could see either a new party or a serious rebranding of the troy party that exists. I think the SNP, labour and Lib Dems will remain but we will see differing degrees of change in all them. Thats all just my thoughts on it - i'm not sure we can seriously know.
jono Feb 2014 2:04pm, 11 Feb 2014 14,724 posts	0 jono HG as you've said the world moves on, nothing stays the same for ever - however comforting that thought maybe for some people - there was an excellent series on R4 about the union and how it has changed over the years or how it could have changes - this is just another chapter in our shared Islands experience and TBH it was laways going to be the case. Having done a stint on a Fishery Protection Vessel and sailing out of Greenock it struck me how very different Scotland was to the rest of the UK and therefore should be reconisged as such. My own preference - speaking as an Englishman - would be for Devo Max, but as the arses in Westminister have mucked it up and held a gun to the head of the Scots it' looks a non starter.
daviec Feb 2014 10:36pm, 15 Feb 2014 3,708 posts	0 daviec jono - I'm anti-war in general. Defence of our country and supporting peace-keeping/humanitarian issues I'm fine with. Outside of that I have a deep issue with anything that results in the death of innocent citizens of a country for political or other reasons. Surely one of the things we could say to the world in this age is that there are many ways to resolve conflict and none of them require bloodshed. HG - our size will be our advantage. Small (it's all relative, we'd actually be roughly the median size of country in the world) nations do the best for their own people and that's what's important. The EU argument seems to have died down now, as it should have done. I'd be happy just to join the EFTA like Norway. I see no reason to be in the EU, but would accept if we stayed in anyway. Our size is hardly likely to be a problem for them given that Europe is essentially a bunch of small countries with a few medium sized ones thrown in. WD - thanks for that info on the representation, it would be interesting to see a comparison to westminster, and also to include something about their wealth as well. The Uk cabinet is made up mostly of multi-miilionaires, and let's not forget about the unelected house of lords. Yes the Scottish system may still have a bit to go, but it's light years ahead of what's on offer in London. I think that it may take a new labour party in Scotland a wee while to convince the supporters that they have cut ties. It is not unnoticed that they are fronting a tory led campaign. Not many people are aware that there is no such entity as Scottish Labour (nor indeed lib-dems, or tories). They use those labels but they are led from London, and that will have to change. And the SNp are not anti-english in any way at all. They are pro-Scotland. There are a significant number of English SNP MSPs. I think post indy may well deplete the SNP but I doubt they'll go away. Indy stopped being their one and only reason a long time ago. They have been a great success in the devolved parliament and I think they would find great support in an independent Scotland. I imagine we may also find many more independent candidates and parties with much further left tendencies than the UK sees. I'm interested in what you said on the last page though about Yes/No. I think you may have those answers the wrong way round. Yes has been consistently trailing No in polls, but the trend is towards Yes (for independence). The last 7 or 8 polls have shown a swing towards yes, and the one published recently in the unionist Daily Record is 48/52 for those who have decided which way to vote. I don't know if it's relevant but you mentioned predicting elections from way out, but this is not an election. And whilst I don't want to fall in to the SNP=Yes trap, Alex Salmond has previous for huge swings at a late stage. It wasn't until the last month before the 2011 Scottish election that any polls suggested he might win, and even then nobody predicted the size of the victory. jono maybe a federal UK will come about if an independent Scotland is a success.