"no one can convince you of the argument that the union is better" - I disagree jono. Nobody has come close, but nobody has tried either. I'll repeat, all I've heard is reasons we can't go, but none for why we should stay and trust me I do my homework for all arguments. Given I started from a position of No it seems unreasonable to say that I'm not capable of having my mind changed. I've lost track of which thread I say what on, but I don't have party allegiance - I've voted for 3 different parties across different elections, and I think I may vote for a 4th in time if the Scottish Greens continue to impress me. I am perfcetly able to listen to a reasonable argument and change my mind.
"But by the very definition that you dislike the Union you therefore hate it - its a simple fact. So if you hate the union you hate everything it stands for - hence Scottish people who believe in the union.you cannot dislike something that strongly then say *ah its okay, lets sit down and have a nice chat*" - I'm sorry but I completely disagree with this. I find it difficult to hate anyone. It seems like such hard work to maintain a negative feeling. I've got a couple of family members who disagree with me on independence. Are you suggesting I hate my mother, or two close cousins? I'm not sure I've really got my point across in my posts though. I don't hate the union. If it worked I'd be all for it. Just because it has worked previously doesn't mean it is now. And what I see, hear and experience does not point to a union working. The odd thing is, it does for me. I've got a good job, a decent level of living, and so on. It's the people it doesn't work for that I want things changed for. And plenty of them think that their lot is as good as it gets. Some of them accept the lies they're fed and will vote no. Some of them will vote no because they've spent their lives singing "Rule Brittania" at football matches. And I don't hate them at all. I do hate what is happening to people through no fault of their own. I don't even hate Dave Cameron and his lot, because I understand they have an ideology that they truly believe in, and that it's not their fault that they cannot possibly have a clue what it's like to try and live on £70 a week and be in honest search of a job but not be able to get one. I don't think they can honestly know that their system means that a woman I know had her welfare sanctioned because they set up two job interviews for her at the same time, and then stopped her benefits because she didn't go to one of them! If they understood what it was like to have that lifeline taken from you they wouldn't do it. But they don't know, because it's a world away from them.
I also understand why they don't give a shit about Scotland, or anywhere else, apart from the places that matter. They can get the most bang for their buck, or their policy by applying it where the population are. Scotland is never going to vote Tory, so they can do whatever they want and lose nothing. Labour felt the same way for the other reason. We had generational voting here. Being a Labour voter was hereditary, and so they took us for granted. Now they've chased the middle English vote so much they've lost a bomb proof vote in Scotland but there's no going back now. They know that even if they regain that support it'll be at the expense of the vote that can win them power.
And I blame none of them for that. They should do that because that's what they need to do, but they must also see that as a result they also must allow Scotland to make it's own decisions because there's nobody else in a position to do it for us. And I understand that we're not the only ones. But we're the only ones that can do something about it right now!
"The most unsettling thing is that NO one knows what going to happen if Scotland becomes independent, its guess work at best. So there you are with the dice in the Gambling casino of democracy, crossing your fingers." - Of course I agree. And nobody can know what will happen if it doesn't either. We've got a good idea. Cuts etc. And it'll all be fine, right up until the cuts affect us. They can't get rid of this deficit by attacking the poor, sick, elderly and disabled. So once they've wrung that section of society out, who'll be next?
"and after Independence whose Scotland going to complain to?" - nobody. Because we'll die by our own sword. That's all we want. To be responsible for our own successes and failures. We've done the Europe one to death now. I'm not particularly bothered if we're in or out of Europe. If I had to pick I'd go for out, but it's not that important to me.
We have our own parliament which does a great job with limited powers, but still has to get the say so from London on the most important matters, we have MPs at Westminster for the other matters who are routinely outvoted. Scottish MPs voted against the 2010 Finance Bill (austerity cuts), the VAT rise, the welfare cuts, the bedroom tax, and Royal Mail privatisation. All went through anyway. All of them have profoundly affected people in Scotland.
And MEPs. We have 6. The same number as Malta (pop. 418,366). With independence we'd have a government with more (useful) powers, more MEPs. So in places where it matters our representation would go up, and in places where it doesn't (Westminster) it would go down. I don't think we'll miss Labour MPs like Jim Hood. What sort of representation is this? Even if his constituents wanted independence, even if they would be better off with independence, he'd still vote No.
Davie, to add balance, I doubt very much that Salmond and Sturgeon know what it is like to claim benefits, let alone live on 70 quid a week. Both come from, what could be termed 'middle class' families. I'm not sure there are many politicians who have really lived on the breadline for any length of time.
And for what it's worth, I work for a large bank, and I can see functions slowly moving to London. They may never announce that they are moving out of Scotland blaming the independence vote, but there certainly seems like they are preparing for it.
Never mind though, there will be plenty jobs building wind turbines. Oh, no I forgot, they're not manuactured in Scotland, or the UK for that matter....
So, we should vote yes regardless of having a job post independence Jambomo? Voting for most comes down to personal reasons. While I can have sympathy for 'the people', my main purpose and function in life is to ensure my wife, children and extended family are safe and well. Why would I do anything to put them at risk?
jono, why are you so passionate that Scotland should not vote yes?
I will be voting yes, not for what will happen tomorrow, next week or even in the next few years, there will be lots of issues to be resolved and it wont be easy. its also definetley not because I hate the union (or English people either!) it is because I believe in the long run we are better able to decide the policies that best suit the people of Scotland.
Have to say, if any company pulled out of Scotland because we went independent they'd not only lose evey customer in Scotland but think about the scots around the world in america Canada etc who'd boycott these companies. Who's going to take a risk like that. I'd feel exact same as Boab if my livelihood was threatened.
That situation would only be temporary though SB, memories are short when there are good deals to be had! Like I said, they would never announce it, but I can see with my own eyes the gradual shift of central functions south of the border. I can't see there never being a presence of the 'big banks' in an independent Scotland, but there may be a situation where there is no central functions, only branches. That would be a massive blow to the workforce of central Scotland, not to mention all those companies reliant on them, of which one is yours (great soup yesterday BTW ;)). A workforce that are not to be confused by the greedy bankers of 'The City' who brought the banks down in 2008, these are normal working class folk like you and me.
Multi-national companies will do what they always do:trade in multiple countries and place their primary cost base where it's most efficient to do so. Companies which are purely "British" will have to think long and hard about whether it's viable to become a multi-national to retain that presence north of Hadrians Wall and start operating in multiple legislations and tax bases, operate cross border trade, etc.
But Boab, the shift of central function happens, has happened already - though generally they move abroad to places where the labour is much cheaper. Most of the finance companies I worked for had Hr, It support and relateed functions in place like Pune and Delhi, these things are already driven by economics not independence.
I didn't mean to say anyone should vote yes Boab, but people should be free to vote for whatever they want without the constraints of their vote = losing their job - such threats are not what this democratic society is meant to be about is it?
Also this vote is about the long term - decision which will last Scotland for centuries, and I think people do realise this and can seperate their own needs from what the best is for the nation overall. I also don't think this, fortunately, this is a problem that affects a lot of people, It seems to be a what if? Argument so hopefully nobody will face this.
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Politics
Jan 2025