Dear Scottish Fetchies
65 watchers
Feb 2014
6:58pm, 21 Feb 2014
3,772 posts
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daviec
Meanwhile in a more light hearted story: bbc.scotlandshire.co.uk 
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Feb 2014
7:22pm, 21 Feb 2014
14,835 posts
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*jono*
Daviec whilst the Iraq war was a tragedy and something I didn't agree with - you can't keep throwing it in the face of everyone when we discuss defense spending or Foreign Policy. My point about the Scottish Battalions is that you can't spend money in a part of the UK if its not needed. Whether that be Army Battalions, RAF bases or Naval Ports. and if your countenance is we should have a fair share of the billions spent up here, I'd ask where and why. Rosyth has never had the infrastructure to support modern warships - even at the height of the cold war. Portsmouth was closed down for the benefit of the Clyde - it works both ways. The simple fact is that you are a British Hater ,so you want to pick your ball up and clear off and spit on the grave of every Scotsman / Woman that has ever worked for the UK Government, died for the United Kingdom I don't know maybe it was our policy in India or our actions during the Boer War. Maybe its the way the union was formed - you've hated your Scottish fore-bearers ever since the Act was created - maybe you thought they soled you out. Your political arguments - as you've stated - are no different to many within the rest of the UK, so what makes them unique, what makes them strong enough to want to end the union? The only argument you have is that the Scottish Parliament will have the final say on everything - ok fine. But don't dress the Independence argument up with endless quotes from pro independence figures or sheer statistics that lets be honest you can do anything with. Ok here's one thought - all the *wealth* that you've listed is because Scotland is part of the UK. Greece had nice statistics before the recession - Spain had nice Statistics before the recession. Whats that you say? they lied on their balance sheets, mucked about with the figures to gain entry into the Euro My God, I've never heard of the like. |
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Feb 2014
8:16pm, 21 Feb 2014
3,773 posts
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daviec
I don't think we should spend more up here, I think we should spend what is spent up here. If we only get £1.5 billion of spending then why does it cost us £3 billion? If we don't generate any debt then why do we pay £4 billion. If we don't get any benefit from HS2 then why should we pay £4 billion for it. If we don't want nuclear WMD then why should we pay £10 billion for it's replacement?This is, I suppose, the crux of the matter. If we didn't send all of our money to London, and then get what they decide to give us back, and then be told what to spend it on, things could be a lot better. As we've no doubt agreed, devo max would provide this. But it's not on offer, and so the only way we can make decisions on how much to spend, what to spend it on, and how to raise that money is for our country to be independent. I thought we've managed reasoned and proper debate and of course I can show pro-indy quotes and stats, but in the main I've actually tried where possible to show them from pro-union/neutral sources, so if you look back you'll see I've used the BBC, Scotsman, FT, and so forth. There is not one mainstream source of UK news that supports independence and yet I've kept as far as possible to use those sources or even foreign news sources. And so despite that you've decided to resort to having a personal and direct pop at me? I am absolutely not a British hater. Your statement about spitting on the graves of those who died for the UK is noted. Several relatives have served the country in world wars, several relatives are currently deployed, and several have served their terms across all 3 forces. And so after this post I am afraid I will not reply to you. Uncalled for and completely out of order. As I replied when asked earlier in the thread at the outset of this campaign I was prepared to vote No in the beginning but wanted to make sure I was well informed which moved me more into the undecided and then from there I have become convinced by the sound arguments provided by the Yes campaign and through studying facts at source rather than in the media. I would be happy to change my mind if someone could come up with a convincing argument to do so. What makes our argument in Scotland unique is that we have the choice to end the union. There are plenty of others who would also like that choice, but they don't have it. So are you saying I should give up on this because you don't like it? Or because nobody else is getting the chance (yet) so it's just not fair? "The only argument you have is that the Scottish Parliament will have the final say on everything". Correct. As stated many times I am of the firm belief that decisions for Scotland should be made in Scotland. The rest of the argument is a counter to statements about what we can't do, the dangers of being independent, how fucking awful our poor wee country will be after independence while of course it's all rosy right now! It seems that if someone says something I disagree with I've not to bother saying so or I'm a British hater. The last few of your posts have become straw man arguments, where you've made an untrue claim about my point and then argued against it. Here's a counter thought - maybe all the wealth the UK has is because Scotland is part of it. Maybe Westminster wants us to stay because they know that their cash cow is looking over the fence. Not because they think we're better together, but because they think they're better with us. Comparisons to Greece, or Spain are not required. They are nothing like our situation (nor is Kosovo!!, lol), and if the figures on Scotland are lies, then you only have the UK government to blame because they provide the figures for the GERS report which is where I got my figures, again as I stated several times. And you're right, they are lies because they undervalue Scotland's actual position. |
Feb 2014
8:52pm, 21 Feb 2014
7,485 posts
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Boab
How much of the money that is pumped south is 'oil money'? What percentage? Anyone know? How would this work in an independent Scotland? How much would Scotland need to pay the UK gov to have it? The renewables thing bothers me too. What a fuckin mess is being made of the very landscapes that bring the tourist here with windfarm after windfarm. A technology that has been proven to be a false economy. Head north of Inverness and you'll see exactly what I mean. |
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Feb 2014
9:08pm, 21 Feb 2014
3,774 posts
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daviec
Scottish GDP without oil = 99% of UK average. Scottish GDP with oil = 112% of Uk average. Only London 'raises' more tax but it's skewed as companies house is there and so lots of the tax that's raised by national or international companies gets accounted through London rather that the specific part of the Uk that it was generated. The renewables thing is actually mainly offshore they're looking at. Wave/tidal power and offshore wind. Europe is taking a lead in this just now (my brother is engineer on a ship working on offshore windfarms in Denmark/Germany). But Scotland has 25% of Europe's potential tidal energy, 10% of the wave energy and about 25% of the offshore wind energy. scotland.gov.uk scotland.gov.uk Tidal turbines could power half of Scotland from just one site. scotsman.com The alternatives of course are to take up the fracking industry which is another unsustainable source of energy, and will be backed up by a nuclear building program with the obvious issues of waste storage. My uncle worked in Dounreay for years (still does as part of the decommissioning) and consults around the world now on decommissioning, so hopefully I'm not spitting on his future grave by saying I don't think nuclear power is a good alternative to natural sources of energy. |
Feb 2014
9:24pm, 21 Feb 2014
6,373 posts
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Bazoaxe
If someones employer was rumoured to be about to announce something about the possible effect of Independence on its business, which is mainly from English customers, how should they react ? Vote for the 'alleged' greater good, while knowing they could be suddenly looking for a job along with a significant numbered of similarly skilled people or vote for the status quo ? Or assume these rumours are just that with no foundation ? |
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Feb 2014
9:33pm, 21 Feb 2014
3,775 posts
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daviec
I'd imagine any decent employer would keep their employees fully aware of their intentions. There were plenty of companies that were rumoured to be leaving Scotland if we voted for devolution in 1999. Do you know of any that actually left? Recently you had the rumours about RBS leaving, which was incorrectly reported as moving to London on independence simply because Vince Cable said it. RBS said nothing of the sort and are no more likely to do so than they would be with the "status quo". I suppose you could ask SNP MPs who are effectively campaigning to be out of a job, although I've no doubt most will find work in 2016 in some form or another. Or what about the PCS union workers at the HMRC in East Kilbride who have backed a Yes vote as they feel they're MORE likely to be employed in an independent Scotland due to the huge cuts being made by their employers. |
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Feb 2014
10:06pm, 21 Feb 2014
4,201 posts
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Jambomo
Some companies at least are happy to continue investing in Scottish production despite the Independence question. So far it isn't hurting us too much, in fact I think we're doing better than we have for a while. m.bbc.co.uk m.scotsman.com |
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Feb 2014
10:22pm, 21 Feb 2014
4,202 posts
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Jambomo
Bazoaxe, whilst it would obviously be very upsetting to lose your job in the event of Independence, you would have to vote the way you believe is right. I mean, you could vote for no - independence might not happen but you get made redundant 3 years down the line anyway - no job is permanent or guaranteed so I don't think you can let things like that guide you. Equally you have to question statements made by anyone, where when you consider them, seem to be acts of cutting your nose off to spite your face. I mean nobody, not even the Scottish or UK governments can say they KNOW what Scotland would be like as an independent nation. Why would any business, in good healthy shape and trading in/with Scotland, leave when there is no immediatly obvious reason too? Even after independence if it happens, why leave on principle if you continue doing well? You wouldn't so it is equally stupid now to declare your business will withdraw from Scotland when there is no obvious need to do so. |
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Feb 2014
11:10pm, 21 Feb 2014
14,836 posts
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*jono*
Daviec I actually have to admit that I had a quick look at your Fetchie Profile and I have to say you seem like a really nice young bloke - your posts are well thought out and you've obviously done your home work. Home work that backs your side of the argument, but homework none the less - but you see whats just happened there? People who start to have a reasonable conversation end up pointing fingers and in the coming months it will become worse - and lets face it no one can convince you of the argument that the union is better you made your mind up along time ago. But by the very definition that you dislike the Union you therefore hate it - its a simple fact. So if you hate the union you hate everything it stands for - hence Scottish people who believe in the union.you cannot dislike something that strongly then say *ah its okay, lets sit down and have a nice chat* The most unsettling thing is that NO one knows what going to happen if Scotland becomes independent, its guess work at best. So there you are with the dice in the Gambling casino of democracy, crossing your fingers. The Nicola Sturgeon school of politics is pretty much the same, always remain composed, be prepared to discuss things sensibly until that is they are challenged or simply told *No that won't happen*. and after Independence whose Scotland going to complain to? The European court? will you be in Europe? oh yes sorry forgot of course you will, nothing will change. Your main argument is that you don't have a say - so to repeat, you have your own parliament which has bought fundamental change to Scotland, you have MP's at Westminster and you have European MP's - an awful lot of representation for Scotland if you ask me. |
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