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Oct 2017
9:24am, 12 Oct 2017
3,036 posts
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larkim
Many ways to skin a cat etc.
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Oct 2017
10:21am, 12 Oct 2017
11,859 posts
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Chrisull
On short fast paces working for marathons, that would chime with the findings of the Running Science book by Owen Anderson (which collates a lot of studies), on that grounds that running fast improves your running economy and improving your running economy has benefits across all distances (in theory, although I note Dr Dan didn't improve at 5k/10k).
However as for long distances, it's not the only time I've heard of marathons pb'ing without doing long distance, I know people pb'ing at the Cornish off max 15 miles a couple of times. It goes back to my question ages ago, about what in a long slow runs specifically improves your fitness for marathons? A quick google reveals answers to be:
improved blood flow and volume (to do with increase protein in the plasma)
stronger heart muscle (aka athlete's heart so not all good)
better stroke volume (heart)
muscle fibres increase because of increased number of mitochondria in muscle cells.
However I've only really seen the last one talked about as something that doesn't happen with faster running, all the rest definitely do. I leave out not "over-training" and fatigue, because at my best I run faster on average over all runs and do more miles. And indeed the faster you train on average, the faster your overall marathon will be. It is I acknowledge, the pace relative to your own effort levels that is critical.
But I observe anecdotally, when I do a long run for the first time after a lay off of long runs, it's a pig to do. Some say it's mental "I'm learning to suffer" again, which I don't really accept, although the brain's governor does play a role. So it's find what works for you, as always.
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Oct 2017
10:38am, 12 Oct 2017
3,037 posts
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larkim
If marathon #3 (!) comes my way, I'm keen to do it differently again. Whilst P&D definitely hit the nail on the head and worked for me, I'm equally curious about how others might compare.
I'm getting a turbo trainer for the home, so assuming I get on with that I might give FIRST a proper go as I'll have a viable / reliable option for the cross training which I've not had before. And whilst I've learnt that more volume has correlated with more speed for me, I do prefer going out and cracking out miles at a pace rather than at a lower effort, so I would have no difficulty in the motivation / ambition required to be regularly running at paces that others might feel uncomfortable with.
It's about (for me) looking at training regimes which fit in with life, and whilst P&D up to 55 miles didn't present too big a challenge there, it was close to the upper limit of what I think is acceptable to ask my family to put up with.
That said, I'll look around more at other approaches too. Perhaps I'm lucky in that I seem to physiologically respond to both ends of the spectrum (my early running history was with FIRST volumes but without any extra cross training, but equally I 5k PBd off the back of pure slow volume, even if it was low volume compared to many).
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Oct 2017
10:38am, 12 Oct 2017
3,038 posts
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larkim
Interesting that the MT podcast this week talks to a cardiac runner / survivor. Timely!
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Oct 2017
10:46am, 12 Oct 2017
11,032 posts
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paul a
Keep it simple, lots of miles, plenty at MP, speedwork and strong mental approach. Leaving aside genetics, there is a reason why elites are elite.
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Oct 2017
10:47am, 12 Oct 2017
6,260 posts
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paul the builder
I think I remember DrDan from HR or Hadd threads some time ago. Well done on getting a new PB, beating times from quite a few years ago is always a good result.
I'm not sure if I see any substantial reduction in mileage in the log, tbh. Maybe slightly.
I think it's probably more interesting that the reduction in miles (such as it is), and the emphasis change, has resulted in basically the same HM performance as years gone by (and therefore a decent increase in WAVA). It says less to me about the marathon, since his conversion before wasn't great before (1:30 to 3:32) and now it's a bit better (1:30 to 3:22) - but still not good enough if I'm being honest. Sorry Dan.
Now - if sticking with the same plan results in 10 more minutes off in Spring (plus 2 x any HM improvement that comes along) - *then* let's talk Furman 
Chris - ""But I observe anecdotally, when I do a long run for the first time after a lay off of long runs, it's a pig to do"". I assume that we all find this? And isn't that the clearest justification for doing long runs?
Once they're not a pig anymore - then we can play with the pace of them.
My Garmin Express has stopped working the last couple of days. Just me? Does anyone else import through GE?
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Oct 2017
10:51am, 12 Oct 2017
25,076 posts
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SPR
PtB has said what I was going to say tbh re DrDan.
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Oct 2017
11:23am, 12 Oct 2017
9,266 posts
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Gymfreak
Hello, just having a little read in here
Really well done to all the Chester (et al) runners, and very excited to see the results from this weekend. (Abo is this weekend right?)
This furman stuff- are there half marathon plans too? I am not actually able to race just now for some medical reasons but when I'm able to come back in 6-12 months or so hopefully I'd like a very good crack at a half.
I *am* still training, but only run 3-4 times a week with a 10 mile 'long' run, so the heady heights of about 25mpw (DON'T LAUGH) and can't really get up to much more without breaking my foot, but I cycle about 200 per week so think I could make a Furman plan work? Or am I not allowed to mention dirty HM words here?! Do I need a book- is Furman a book?!
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Oct 2017
11:26am, 12 Oct 2017
4,899 posts
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chunkywizard
PTB, I occasionally import via GE (but mostly through GCM). I did yesterday and it was fine for me.
It is worth updating GE (settings: About: Check for Updates) and also turning the watch on and off (if you haven't done that in a while).
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Oct 2017
11:46am, 12 Oct 2017
6,261 posts
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paul the builder
Cheers CW. I didn't look for GE updates, I'll try that. I just did GE stop/starts, and then Windows off/on. I'm still lunking about with a 310xt, so it spends 23 hours a day switched off.
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