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Oct 2017
9:55pm, 11 Oct 2017
3,219 posts
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Windsor Wool
Baz - that's the JD plan that has influenced my last 2 cycles, yes. 1st time was London this year when I really wanted to follow it but then my ankle right at the start that meant there was no way I could hit that level of quality 3 months out. So, I did what I could and just tried to increase mileage and sprinkled in some of the JD sessions. I PB'd at VLM which was really quite amazing seeing as though 12 weeks out my 4 mile tempos were coming in about marathon pace!!
So, this time around I really thought that there must be something in some of those big quality sessions. So, what I basically did was took the biggest midweek sessions and put them in to the p&d 70 plan, replacing the midweek MLRs with these big MP, tempo, and mixed sessions. I don't know how it's going to influence the marathon in the end but it helped me take 90s off my 10k time totally untapered!
I have really enjoyed the mix, I've got really bored with those midweek runs in P&D and it's taken something different to get me out of the door to get them done.
I reckon you're experienced enough to know what elements of your normal plans work for you. Perhaps it's time to build your own plan with some more experimental bits thrown in. I really hope you'll try a bit of something different for VLM.
And finally. WTF are you doing looking at your next plan already. Drink beer, eat donuts for a few weeks, please!!!
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Oct 2017
10:13pm, 11 Oct 2017
11,979 posts
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Bazoaxe
lol WW & Thanks jda.
The book I have is clearly different as it has totally different plans to those you mention jda. no such thing as elite or A plans. the options are:
Novice
2Q sessions a week
4 week cycle
5 week cycle
18 weeks
12 weeks
And each with a variety of weekly mileage options
I do think I need something different if I am to find that wee bit of extra time
Ive found a way with the 18 week plan to get 5 x 20 miles in there and with no running using the time to sketch out a plan based on the 2Q sessions up to 85 mile weeks which looks doable. While drinking some wine and eating chocolate.......
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Oct 2017
10:16pm, 11 Oct 2017
11,980 posts
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Bazoaxe
sorry, its the 2Q plan that is also 18 weeks....the 18 week plan was the one I looked at before and was bonkers daft.
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Oct 2017
10:48pm, 11 Oct 2017
3,220 posts
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Windsor Wool
On how nuts / daft the sessions look, none of the sessions I have run from the JD plan have been as big / hard as the 2 grand piece de resistance in P&D: the 14 at MP and the 7 at tempo.
What the JD sessions build in are breaks. You might run 12 miles of MP in a session but that'll be split 7M, 1E, 5MP. 7 MP is doable and focusses the mind, after 1 mile recovery 5 is also pretty easy. Well, that's the way I think of it.
In Feb I ran one session that was something like: 5E, 8MP, 0.5E, 2T, 0.5E, 2T, 1E. I ran the sessiony bit as part of a HM event and while those around me thought I was mad and kept showing concern for me as I slowed to a jog, it was the easiest 87 min HM I have ever run!
For me, going out on a wed night and running a 15 miler at MP+15s has become basically the norm when without the rests it'd seem quite impossible.
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Oct 2017
7:05am, 12 Oct 2017
11,981 posts
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Bazoaxe
Ww. The very first run in the plan I am looking at is 18 miles with 5 easy 6 MP a 1 mile break 5 MP and one easy to finish with. BUT that break between the MP miles is at tempo pace. That's harder than 14 MP and its first up. P&d build up MP over weeks and actually only goes to 12 I think although I sometimes go a bit further.
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Oct 2017
7:57am, 12 Oct 2017
13,755 posts
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Fenland (Fenners) Runner
You should try the FIRST plan, almost every run is faster than my MP 
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Oct 2017
8:17am, 12 Oct 2017
11,982 posts
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Bazoaxe
But your MP should be faster Fenners
WW, sorry, another question...the wed night 15 at MP + 15s...ive seen them in your log and thought :-O. Presumably though that's not even paced, its the Q2 session of the week with whatever way its prescribed for you that day ?
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Oct 2017
8:34am, 12 Oct 2017
5,247 posts
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Joe Hawk
JD - Sessions are daftly hard. I'd need a training programme to get get fit enough to train for his schedule.
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Oct 2017
8:35am, 12 Oct 2017
3,221 posts
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Windsor Wool
I must have subconsciously filtered that one out Baz!
Yes, spot on. All sorts of combinations of sessions that I can't really remember now, they become a blur. 8MP, 1E, 4MP was defo one; as was 8 MP, 1E, 3MP, 1T.
This time around the furthest I have run at target MP in one go is 13 miles and that was in a steady HM event. Oh....
I put my plan in to an excel file, if you'd like it I can share by email. It won't have enough miles in for you but would be another reference point.
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Oct 2017
9:19am, 12 Oct 2017
27,650 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
Just a quick update re. a recent Furman success for the benefit of the thread and those looking at alternatives to P&D for next cycle. Dr Dan (there seem to be about 20 Fetchies running at Chester - what happened to saying Hi to a fellow Fetchie...?! Anway...!)
He PBd at Chester with 3:22 (well done Dr Dan!) MV45 (or even 50, can't remember) but important thing is progression. Down from 3:31 VLM and 3:32 something before that. He is doing Furman (aka FIRST) - 3 runs a week, 35 mpw max, with cycling etc. as his cross train. Has had injuries in past. Marathon PBs, but the most interesting thing to me was that he was NOT improving 5K and 10K. His half stayed about equivalent to 4 years ago, and his 5K and 10K are actually less good than back then. But his marathon has improved.
Counter intuitive, low mileage and scary paces for every one of the 3 runs per week = good marathon. I offer no explanation, but just put it up as another piece of information / evidence. As he is progressing, maybe DrDan will appear on this thread...? G
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