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Jan 2020
10:44am, 31 Jan 2020
19,107 posts
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DeeGee
Cheers um.
Problem is, *if* I suggest that metrication has been going on long before we even considered thinking about joining the EEC, or that the fishing fleet was on its arse the second we had our arses handed to us by the Icelandic coastguard, let alone after we were kicked out of Canadian waters, or if I suggest that bureaucracy relating to trans-border trade will *increase* if we leave the single market, then all I get is "Yah-boo, remoaner traitor, it's Tyburn for you. Why don't you live in Brussels if you like it so much?"
It's not debate, and it won't reunite the country.
What's done is done. I reserve my right to still think it's the shittest of shit ideas, and I'll do what I can to make sure that 'team leave' own the consequences. As far as I'm concerned, everything shit from here on in is the fault of us leaving the EU. And if I'm proved wrong and it is a roaring success, I'll come back on here and admit I was wrong.
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Jan 2020
10:45am, 31 Jan 2020
33,066 posts
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LindsD
Thank you
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Jan 2020
11:09am, 31 Jan 2020
4,450 posts
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1step2far
What Dee Gee said.
If I could do my job in Europe I would. I'm so very very sad.
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Jan 2020
11:16am, 31 Jan 2020
1,673 posts
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um
DeeGee - you'll never prick 30 years of 'emotion' with 2 mins of logic. So may need a different approach.
Great political leaders (in my view, from whatever side) have led with emotion and heart, but were able to add logic & reason for support when needed. I think the 'remain' campaign relied on logic and only employed emotion as a threat - never finding or sharing a core passion or emotional reason to stay.
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Jan 2020
11:21am, 31 Jan 2020
19,108 posts
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DeeGee
Because there are no logical reasons to leave, and it was all about flag-waving?
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Jan 2020
11:25am, 31 Jan 2020
6,255 posts
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jda
I have looked into moving but ultimately I don't actually want to, I rather like it here. Might regret in another decade or so, retiring to warmer climes does have its appeal.
As for Stander's version of the One True Brexit fantasy....hardly worth reading. My mother's attitude has some similarities, only she doesn't really pretend to care much about the wages of the low-paid and mostly affects concern as to where all these immigrants are going to live on this overcrowded island. Concerns that didn't seem to bother her so much when it came to holding on to 3, yes 3, properties with a total of 12 bedrooms over the last few decades (inherited), two of them wholly unoccupied save for occasional holiday visits, and steadily decaying though lack of use and maintenance. Concerns that seem rather to have been invented as a post-hoc justification for what is actually deep-seated anti-European xenophobia.
So yes, Stander may be right to say that rational debate is difficult, but it's because the Brexit vision isn't actually based on rational analysis, rather being a visceral rabid anti-European feeling that doesn't have much basis in facts or rationality.
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Jan 2020
11:29am, 31 Jan 2020
15,704 posts
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Chrisull
Funny we have repeatedly asked Stander to tell us the benefits, and he goes quiet - EVEN when Fetch, who he acknowledges he has no beef with, asks him if he could (a little while back)
And it takes B Rubble to cut and paste from an economists forum some of the perceived benefits. It wasn't that hard was it? I don't agree with them, and think they are likely to be wishful thinking - BUT I'm not here to rubbish them, or call people who believe them fools.
In fact I think there is a deeper danger for any rejoiner (as we now become), saying it will all be disaster/humbug. If that doesn't happen and it probably won't (it will be a long slow decline over a decade most likely), and then we end up looking stupid, and ends up cementing being on the losing side. I don't advocate supporting being outside the EU, but it's like climate change - you say the earth ends tomorrow, or 5 years time , and when it doesn't you end up looking foolish and next time people are less inclined to believe you.
Anyway - I watched Ed Ball's documentary last night on Germany and Poland "extremists", which was informative and humourous, and a good exercise. I think more and more political parties are dead and it is now becoming foolish to affiliate to them. The "us vs the elites" rhetoric is really embedded and the idea of people joining together whether as a labour union, or a community or a local council or govt, or large trading bloc is not popular.
Independence (and identity - which is very strongly wedded to it) are now the name of the game. The left have a total blindspot on identity (although not the way in the which they think). By standing (rightfully) up for minorities, refugees, the downtrodden but in a particularly "segregated" way (eg. a lesbian, or a person of colour), people are assigned "tribes" that sometimes intersect and it didn't take long for majority, white middle class who felt disenfranchised, alienated to recognise they also belong, and make the same kind of arguments for their own tribe.
And here in lies the problem, you can be white, privileged and disenfranchised. "The elites don't listen to us" said one well to villager, in the very scenic Saxon town that now massively supports the AFD. And you can't just go around telling people they are wrong.
As a running coach we are told to not to intervene (unless strictly necessary), not to challenge. To let the athlete reflect, and gently nudge them. What I liked about Balls was that he gently tried to unpick the gay married taxi driver voting for a party that wants to end gay marriage, and the AFD politician who wants 200,000 immigrants deported but is married to a Turkish woman. They have to see the contradictions of their position. People think you can tell them, but all that happened in the last 30 years of socially progressive movement, was that those who didn't believe you, just shut up and hid their views. You want real change?
You have to look in the mirror and persuade yourself to change, and in doing so, you offer up a story, that maybe others will look at themselves and reflect in the same way.
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Jan 2020
11:34am, 31 Jan 2020
6,256 posts
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jda
Good luck on getting a 65-year-old to look at the hopes and aspirations of a 21-year-old who wasn't even allowed to vote in the referendum.
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Jan 2020
11:38am, 31 Jan 2020
298 posts
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Stander
Chris - did you not go back and read my posts regarding immigration when I explicitly explained one of my many reasons for voting Leave? And on many other occasions I have put forward views in other areas. Perhaps not so explicitly though.
You may not agree with my reasons, but I sure as hell have not been completely silent in here about them.
Anyway, I need to head off and iron my outfit for the celebrations in the pub tonight.
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Jan 2020
11:44am, 31 Jan 2020
19,109 posts
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DeeGee
It's a very nice pattern of overlapping and intersecting crosses on a royal blue field, Stander, and at first glance looks very similar to a Union Flag.
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