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Jan 2020
9:10am, 31 Jan 2020
23,027 posts
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Johnny Blaze
Funny how the Tories now frame positives of the next 12 months in terms of negotiating back all the things we already have. It's like resigning membership of the golf club one day and knocking on the door to demand membership rights - without actually being a member - the next...
My own thought is that once today is over and we are safely past the point of no return, all the lies which led us to this point will be exposed quite quickly as reality bites - and we won't be able to do a thing about it.
Lies, deceit, manipulation, and a base level of ignorance and callous arrogance are baked in with the bunch of shysters who are currently in charge. They will not exhibit any shame. No apologies will be forthcoming.
And as the truth comes out, Johnny Wetherspoon's attitude will probably be either indifference or a shrug of the shoulders: "They lied. So what? We got what we wanted."
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Jan 2020
9:11am, 31 Jan 2020
2,401 posts
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B Rubble
Just thought it was getting a bit overheated here. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a supporter of Brexit, I voted against it.
FR, you're right that using housebuilding as the only indicator of an upturn in economic activity would be wrong. One of the mistakes that has been made on the last two recessions was "House prices are high, people are happy, times are good and this will last forever."
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Jan 2020
9:12am, 31 Jan 2020
19,106 posts
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DeeGee
What I don't understand about all of this, is that there are people who passionately believe in something, to such an extent that they'll be partying about it and celebrating tonight, yet they aren't able or willing to express exactly why.
Look at anyone else who passionately believes in something. Look at Jehovah's Witnesses, environmentalists, vegans, hunt saboteurs. All of them, if you ask them why, will happily tell you in clear and uncertain terms why. And if you don't agree, and let them know, they'll debate you!
The only people who don't are football supporters. Football supporters support the team they support, and fuck the rest of you. They don't go round encouraging supporters of other teams to maybe have a think about changing team. "Well, there are no restricted view seats anywhere in our stadium, they've got a decent bitter on tap, there's lettuce in the burgers, and we have a win/lose ratio of 36.2% since the current manager took over". It just doesn't happen.
They're also the only people who can only see things as win or lose, and who have a hardcore element of racist hooligans who cannot accept that World War Two finished 74 years ago, and that since 1966, despite the fact that we invented the game, we've been pretty much a second or third rate country at it.
"Look at the FIFA rankings", they say, "We're seventh!". Yes, that means that, quite rightly, we'll get knocked out of the Quarter Finals, probably on penalties, and chairs will start being thrown around and "Same old England". And someone will get a knighthood for that achievement.
Now, I'm not saying that all football supporters are racist hooligans. Only a noisy minority. But it's those football hooligans that end up having English football clubs banned from UEFA competition in the 80s, supporters in Italia 90 corralled onto an island where they could be controlled, who arouse massive suspicion wherever they go. Because the only people who are happy expressing their passion for the game are those who express it in a way that is distasteful to the rest.
Thing is, this isn't a game of football. It isn't a war. It's politics, and the whole point of politics is for debate and reasoning. Debate that I'm not seeing. *We* debate. *We* explain what we're afraid of. And all we get back is "You lost, tough shit, suck it up buttercup."
All I have ever wanted to know is why people, rational, intelligent people, like me. Middle aged, middle class, reasonably well educated professionals are so very passionate about something that I'm not. And I don't think I'm ever going to see why, because I see it is politics, but they see it as football.
Or have I totally misunderstood?
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Jan 2020
9:33am, 31 Jan 2020
293 posts
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Stander
Deegee - the one problem that is peculiar to this thread only on Fetch is that it is a very small pond inhabited almost exclusively by remainers.
And often (but not always) any leave comments and supporters are set upon by the Ultras in the remain ranks.
To use your football hooligan analogy, it's not just the British football supporters that contain racist hooligans. The Italians and Germans (amongst others) also have their distasteful elements.
And so it is with some of the Remainers in here. I don't recall any Remainers in here being called arrogant pricks, cunt or a multitude of other abusive terms. Yet these have been freely thrown at leavers.
I'll happily have reasoned sensible debate with anyone on this subject but it just simply isn't possible in this small pond.
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Jan 2020
9:33am, 31 Jan 2020
6,248 posts
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jda
Apparently it's all about "control" and "sovereignty". Two things that brexiters appear to feel very passionately about but don't seem to be able to explain or understand very well. As of 11pm, we are supposed to be celebrating a massive boost to them, despite the basic fact being that we have actually lost both for the next 11 months, for sure. Up is down, freedom is slavery.
The biggest lesson of brexit - and the last general election - is that votes are primarily won by appealing to emotion, with only a small minority bothering to think about consequences and outcomes. And that if you lie shamelessly and voluminously enough, truth ceases to have any value. In the country of the blind, the one-eyed person is cast out.
BTW DeeGee a large majority of brexiters are old or poorly educated. That still leaves some in your category, but not many.
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Jan 2020
9:36am, 31 Jan 2020
2,001 posts
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Canute
B Rubble, thanks for posting that opinion of an economist supporting leave. As I know from my own conversations with thoughtful leavers, there are arguments that the economic situation might turn out well. However there are two main reasons why I have been unimpressed by such arguments so far.
First they lack the attention to the details of trade, such as the implications of the withdrawal agreement for trade with Northern Ireland.
Secondly, they acknowledge that this speculative outcome depends on sensible decisions by the BJ government, in the face of overt evidence that BJ cannot be trusted. To engage in a gamble that might turn out well but also has substantial probability of turning out badly is reckless, perhaps stupidly reckless.
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Jan 2020
9:37am, 31 Jan 2020
294 posts
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Stander
As an example of that last sentence, I have had an fmail this morning from someone supporting me after last night's abuse.
They don't want to be named and also don't feel able to participate in this thread because of the hostility in it.
I'll countenance that also in the interest of fair balance but also saying I have had a few weeks ago a fmail from someone berated me in private. But at least that person had the decency to keep their disapproval civil.
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Jan 2020
9:40am, 31 Jan 2020
44,650 posts
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Diogenes
Stander, you reason you come in for stick on here is precisely because you refuse to engage in reasoned argument, yet you pop in every now and then to claim you are being victimised. I think you must enjoy it.
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Jan 2020
9:41am, 31 Jan 2020
44,651 posts
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Diogenes
It is possible. Why don't you try it?
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Jan 2020
9:42am, 31 Jan 2020
1,671 posts
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um
Once again, sorry to see that the Fetch standards are being dropped. I think Stander needs an apology.
DeeGee - yes, any decision or plan for the future needs passion, not just logic, or pseudo-economics presented as logic. But I'll try to explain what I hear*
- For about 30 – 40 years we’ve been brainwashed into thinking everything wrong in the country is due to EU. Whether size of apples, straightness of bananas, or selling things in pounds and ozs.
- The EU are solely responsible for stealing our fish stocks (except for when we sold them our quota)
- The CAP and paying farmers to grow nothing
- Endless bureaucracy
- Another overpaid bloated self-important set of politicians and ‘government’ level admins
This is what many of the UK public saw as 'EU' - and if leaving is so difficult because we're so entrenched, better to do it now while there's still a chance.
*Not necessarily my views - I have spent my career as an EU & global worker. I'd rather change from within ratehr than walk away, but we're now able to 'make our own decisions and own laws' (unless we need/want to conform to trade & other intrernational agreements)
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Fantasy General Election
Jul 2024
