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Nov 2019
11:21am, 5 Nov 2019
9,388 posts
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larkim
I agree it does appear to be illogical jda. I'd just suggest that as at least a part of the discipline of distance racing is mental, perhaps it is credible to suggest that some people find it hard to get the best out of themselves on a monotonous flat course, whereas the variety of a more undulating course unlocks extra resilience and ultimately (sometimes) gets a better result for equal training / physical condition.
Variety helps me to chunk up a run to deal with each section individually, and the changing effort of ascending / descending combined with reviewing on the go data about pace / HR etc might just allow me to switch off or access more mental reserves than I would if it was, say, a track marathon or a pan flat urban course.
That's not to say that I am definitely better on an undulating course, but I do prefer it. And with that mindset in place, I've not targeted flat races for PBs, with the exception of Heckington 10m which did result in a big PB (so maybe disproves my theory)!
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Nov 2019
11:23am, 5 Nov 2019
5,812 posts
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jda
Big difference between preferring it and going faster on it 
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Nov 2019
11:27am, 5 Nov 2019
9,389 posts
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larkim
Yes, certainly. But as I say, perhaps I am faster because I enjoy it more. Clearly on the start line, if there's no net elevation change between the start and the finish line in terms of pure physics there is less energy cost to running a flat race than one with any undulations. But running isn't just about pure physics.
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Nov 2019
11:30am, 5 Nov 2019
5,814 posts
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jda
But from what you are saying, you don't even have any reason to suspect you might be faster on undulating courses, do you?
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Nov 2019
11:42am, 5 Nov 2019
9,391 posts
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larkim
Until this year, no.
But my long standing 10m PB was set at Stockport 10, and on the pan flat Heckington course in good conditions when I think I was much fitter I only bettered that by 1s.
Stockport 10 in 2014 was off the back of monthly miles of 60/34/64/74/41/69 and Heckington 10 in 2017 was off the back of monthly miles of 73/172/161/144/181/173.
I'd have expected a much better bang for my buck in 2017.
Sample of 1 of course, but it's the best example I have.
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Nov 2019
11:47am, 5 Nov 2019
303 posts
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Rog T
Is that North Dorset Village Marathon you are thinking of Chris? That is my local marathon, organised by my club and also my PB and it is undulating (I haven't run a flat one since i had a bit of a jump in fitness/running ability though).
I believe it will be the only officially licensed road marathon in Dorset next year and could tell you plenty about it. Only 186 finishers this year, no big crowds but as there is a 4 person relay option there are 3 changeover points that give you a good lift.
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Nov 2019
12:08pm, 5 Nov 2019
15,477 posts
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Chrisull
I did it once before in 2016, did 3.26, but I think I was suffering a bit from undiagnosed anemia then. It's a good course, I think I took the hill at 20 a little too hard, and didn't bargain with a smaller one at 23 which finished me off.
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Nov 2019
12:14pm, 5 Nov 2019
15,567 posts
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Bazoaxe
Re the flat v undulating course. Goes back to what I said yesterday. Its a mindset. Some people lose concentration on a flat course and you need to tune your mind not to do that. A flat course is almost certainly faster. Some peope, lose concentration at other times. You need to train your mind to remain focussed throughout.
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Nov 2019
12:20pm, 5 Nov 2019
15,479 posts
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Chrisull
Exactly Bazo. On the hills, you train yourself from one hill to the next. So ease up a little going up, step up a little going down, keeping HR within zones.
And on the flat on the Cornish I overcame that with a specific strategy of stepping up to a goal pace (7.10 a mile), but this time that wasn't an option. Of course that strategy is useless on the flat, you have a goal pace, you stick to it, it really begins to hurt, cardiac drift and you just drift off the pace. On a good day for me that's mile 21-23 on a bad day it's mile 16-19. I need a strategy for that. I think I have some ideas how that can be done.
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Nov 2019
12:51pm, 5 Nov 2019
1,148 posts
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Shortcut Cam
I’d go further Baz. You need to train mind & body. My coach wants me running the medium to long runs on pan flat routes in preparation for Manchester so there are no (wild) fluctuations in heart rate. Thankfully there’s a canal near me and it is going to become my best friend for the next five months.
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