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Dec 2019
8:21pm, 15 Dec 2019
22,992 posts
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Johnny Blaze
Yep. I don't think there's any point in speculating whether Labour's policies would have won if Corbyn hadn't been presenting them or vice-versa.in the public's eyes the two were inseparable and that was part of the problem. A pragmatic centre left leader would never have put forward that manifesto. When you add in the anti-western rhetoric that Corbyn instinctively spouted whenever anything horrid happened in the world, he was dead in the water.
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Dec 2019
9:43pm, 15 Dec 2019
2,455 posts
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J2R
Here's a question I thought I'd never ask, one for all my fellow Remainers on here...
Given where we are now, was it in the end worthwhile having fought against Brexit after the 2016 Referendum, trying to do whatever we could to prevent it happening, or would it have been better to have accepted the result straight away? That is, is it possible that in the end our fight might have led to our situation being worse now than it would have otherwise been, with the lying, amoral, unprincipled Johnson leading a far-right government who have 5 years in which they can do colossal damage to social democracy in this country, effectively unimpeded?
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Dec 2019
10:40pm, 15 Dec 2019
15,618 posts
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Chrisull
Accepting the result would (and will) inevitably mean accepting the Tory version of Brexit, no single market, no customs union. I don't think that was tenable for Labour. And to oppose in ANY form would have been seen as prevarication. But opposing is what an opposition does, not act like the Lib Dems in coalition. Because when people do get fed up with what a govt does, they inevitably blame the junior coalition partner or the co partners in crime. (Germany's social democrats)
Also these fights are going to keep on happening again and again under different names. Deal or WTO at the end of transition? Trade deal with US on their terms or not at all? Trade deal with EU on worse terms than we had previously? To closely align regulation or not? And eventually, to rejoin or not. I wonder if the Tories wisest move is to try and bury all this under the carpet and just go all soft Brexit behind the scenes. And effectively say "what's Brexit", look we've built 40 ahem 6 new hospitals, look we've given every public sector worker a 1% pay rise. However I'm not sure they're capable of this, and over time this will destroy them. They are not well liked, and I think many Labour people who voted for them/didn't vote at all in the northern towns would reconsider at a later point if Brexit is half done, and Corbyn a distant memory. They have executed a cultural change, they merely borrowed these people. They have earn trust. Labour must regain their trust and earn it back.
It is an intelligent hypothetical question and in some ways I wish Labour had lost in 2017 like this, so we could be 2 years further down the road to fixing it, looking at a 2022 election. The situation would have been different. In some ways better, in some ways. But equally as complex.
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Dec 2019
10:47pm, 15 Dec 2019
44,325 posts
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Raptors Claws are Coming to Town
On 24/6/16, disappointed but unsurprised at the result, I wrote in my blog:
We've got what we've got. What I do NOT want now is a round of political and legal shilly-shallying over whether or not the minutiae of the process were all wriggleproof. Please let's just get the fuck on with getting out as smoothly and efficiently and peacefully as possible. And let's not believe that leaving the EU will put us in the same position as we would be if we had never been in the EU, like Switzerland.
I can see positives. Does this mean that a whole tier of politicians - MEPs - and their retinues will become redundant? That would be good. I'm not all that keen on spending money on tiers of administration. Does it mean that Mr Cameron is really and truly going to resign? Will he take Mr Osborne and Mr Hunt with him? Shame about the Gove chap, but I suppose you can't win them all. Will UKIP go away now that it's served its purpose? Will the Labour party wake up and get a grip?
And yes, as a Remainer I do think it might have been preferable for all parties to accept the outcome of the ballot and work together to negotiate an amicable exit with unburned bridges. But we have not been blessed with politicians of that character.
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Dec 2019
11:00pm, 15 Dec 2019
5,988 posts
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jda
J2R, the problems of the last three years have had little to do with remainers. The brexiters have been in charge throughout and still can't agree where they are going. It's true that opposition parties could in theory have taken the Tory whip and voted with the govt, but that's not what opposition parties do...
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Dec 2019
11:13pm, 15 Dec 2019
1,326 posts
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GeneHunt59
Well we will have Brexit now, in whatever form. However, should it not work out perfectly then of course it will be 'the EU's fault, or remainers, or parliament', or any combination. Plus if we had left on 24 June 2016 rather than 'faffed about' till 31 January 2020 then any 'minor' issues would have been ironed out by now and all of the new 'too good to be true' trade deals in place. Total ******** of course.
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Dec 2019
8:17am, 16 Dec 2019
6,178 posts
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Dooogs
Hmm... with hindsight, we should have pushed for a 52:48 Brexit, perhaps (staying in the Common Market , etc).
That said, given the EU's stance on the indivisibility of the 4 freedoms and May's views on immigration , I'm not confident that would have worked either ...
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Dec 2019
9:41am, 16 Dec 2019
5,989 posts
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jda
There was no push to be done, no "we" to push for it. Corbyn whipped against CU amendment, remember. Sure, it might have turned out better if he hadn't. Same as pushing for a 2nd ref more clearly, earlier, rather than this idiotic red unicorm brexit bullshit which only convinced everyone that he was a moron. Nevertheless, the tories had a majority, and they have a bigger one now, and at some point quite soon they will have to start deciding what they actually want.
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Dec 2019
10:15am, 16 Dec 2019
22,993 posts
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Johnny Blaze
I don't think the opposition can be blamed for having a different version of Brexit when the ruling party can't even agree amongst themselves what Brexit they want.
Johnson is going to have to decide whether he goes for a Brexit-lite to get a quick FTA; an "optimal Brexit" which allows to trade as frictionlessly as possible with the EU but also allows us freedom to do other stuff elsewhere as we see fit - which will take time that he may not have
or a "Fuck EU" Brexit which will make a clean break at the end of next year.
Option 1 will see him warring with his own party again - similar battle lines to the ones the Maybot had. Option 2 will have Farage and the Brexit Hard men on his case again. Option 3 could be accompanied by capital and manufacturing flight which could bring down his government.
He still has the same essential problem the Maybot had - if he can't get his own party behind the deal he strikes he is sunk. I seriously doubt he will get all his MPs to go for a no deal Brexit, but time will tell. If we do crash out, he will lose the next election as the chickens come home to roost big time.
The fat idiot has his heart's desire now - let's see how that works out for him. I hope he chokes on Brexit, which is substantially his creation. he and his party are destroying this country and I fervently hope they destroy themselves in the process.
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Dec 2019
10:16am, 16 Dec 2019
31,850 posts
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LindsD
That ^
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Fantasy General Election
Jul 2024
