Dec 2019
12:58pm, 15 Dec 2019
2,502 posts
|
OTannenbaumMike
Are we going to see lots of divisive rhetoric from Sturgeon now or was it always there and I just missed it? bbc.com If so, it's a nice way to rile people up. Perhaps taking a leaf out of Boris and Nigel's approach. |
Dec 2019
1:05pm, 15 Dec 2019
15,615 posts
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Chrisull
SPR - I agree in some ways BUT the other way was backing May's or Johnson's deal and hoping the Remainers sucked it up. I for one would NEVER have voted Labour again. As one wag on Twitter pointed out, maybe that was the whole point of the referendum, to explode Labour's fragile fault lines on Europe? Maybe it was never totally about shooting the Farage fox. The Tories and supporters have been doing some long term think. (Guido registered BackBoris2020 in 2012). The drift away in the Labour heartlands (Sedgefield et al) started BEFORE 2010. As far back as 2005 even 2001 the data scientists are saying. All Miliband and Corbyn was cementing that. Labour don't need policies currently. (flippant but true). Anything good the Tories will steal, anything bad they willl be used to hammer them with. What they need is a strong, boring leader (Keir Starmer fits the bill) who can talk well in public, doesn't look like a stereotypical "Marxist" (whatever they look like, the Mail could probably make Rees Mogg fit the profile if they wanted). The election is simple. Get back some of the over 65s. Under 65, Labour won by 1%, Over 65 Labour lost by 43%. If they chase Labour Leavers, Tory Remainers, white working class, or young green students or radical centrists, these are small demographics and often getting one repels another. They might help to win elections as segments, but here, Labour need a Blair style landslide just to get 1 seat majority. It is simply about looking, solid, dull, dependable a la Blair, and when the inevitable Marxist, reds under the bed attacks come (I saw a 1945 Express front page saying don't vote for Gestapo like policies in England as an attack on Clement Atlee), they to some extent don't look credible. (as they didn't with Blair). Take one message, an affordable one, and stick to it. The NHS care service is a good idea. The 32 hour week probably repelled these voters who thought, I worked 40 hours +, why should the feckless, lazy youth get to work less? Look solid, dependable, dull. Hammer one message relentlessly home to appeal to your target demographic. Magnify any Tory mistakes. Anything else is just flim flam. |
Dec 2019
1:07pm, 15 Dec 2019
15,665 posts
|
Bazoaxe
It has always been there Mike. They fought this campaign on a stop Brexit / stop Boris platform and sought Unionist Remain votes to back them. Within hours of the result they used these votes as a mandate for Independence. I wouldnt trust them and I dont think they have a particularly good record in the Scottish Parliament. If they could sort that out and then state a case that made sense for Independence then they might have a chance. |
Dec 2019
1:55pm, 15 Dec 2019
20,188 posts
|
TRO Saracen
Spot on Chris. I also think a visible ‘battle’ with the Corbynista sect will help; forget unity for a while - that can be the last 18 months of the 5 years. The sort of battle that Kinnock fought with militant and Blair with clause 4. They demonstrated to voters that the moderates were in control and fringes could be ignored. It may be that the leadership fight itself will be part of that. But it has to be ‘won’, and I’m not confident. |
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Dec 2019
2:18pm, 15 Dec 2019
20,189 posts
|
TRO Saracen
Back to Fozzy’s ‘not extreme’ manifesto point. It was extreme for the British electorate. Our centre point is more right than say France, and thus an extreme left manifesto in our electorate’s view would not be in France. Doesn’t matter what a narrow slice of the population, or this thread thinks. The election has to be won on those terms, with broader appeal. That centre point can be shifted over time but it needs driving from a governing party, and a long timescale. Thatcher moved it right, and Blair only shifted it a small way back left. Labour needs to fight the election with the electorate it has got, not the one it thinks it should have. |
Dec 2019
2:30pm, 15 Dec 2019
1,006 posts
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Brighouse Boy
Wise words TRO
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Dec 2019
2:49pm, 15 Dec 2019
6,172 posts
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Dooogs
There's some truth in both sides (inconveniently). The message may, perhaps, have been too radical for a 2019 UK audience conditioned to distrust big, complex plans. But the doorstep animus against Corbyn was so strong that even a modest, simple manifesto from him wouldn't have cut through. The challenge for the next five years is somehow to try to stop the Overton window from moving even further right whilst recognising that the next manifesto must be inside that window, and coming from a leader capable of selling it... |
Dec 2019
2:49pm, 15 Dec 2019
9,323 posts
|
rf_fozzy
TRO - you miss the point. The electorate of 65+ might be right wing (as an average), The sub40s on the other hand are not. As I've said before, if you aren't going to even attempt to tackle the major issues coming down the line in 10-15 years time, then I'm sorry you're barking mad. If that means more left wing policies to break the status quo, that is what is needed. To those who want to pull up the generational drawbridge (a la Brexit), then you need a leader who can paint these as nutters. A good leader would be able to do this. It ain't Corbyn. Or Milne or McClusky or Abbott. These people need to be kept away. Because their communication skills are poor. The 2019 manifesto was probably too much and a bit too far in one go, I agree, but the shape of it was broadly right (we can argue about what needs nationalising and what doesn't etc). I think they got seduced by the popularity of the 2017 manifesto and went further. If they'd have stuck with something similar and *more importantly* communicated it better with a better leader, the result would have been very different. |
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Dec 2019
3:21pm, 15 Dec 2019
6,173 posts
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Dooogs
On a selfish note, has anyone read the full STimes and STelegraph articles on Cummings' plans for the civil service? Doesn't sound good from the first para or each but most of each article is paywalled...
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Dec 2019
4:51pm, 15 Dec 2019
1,511 posts
|
um
Doogs - you should have fmail. But unless I got the wrong article, it's mostly a journalists view & unattributed quotes, rather than anything tangible or committed? |
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