Oct 2019
12:05pm, 7 Oct 2019
5,402 posts
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jda
It was of course a part-joke HG but the point remains that in international negotiations, there are three seats of significant power, and the UK is planning to leave one of them.
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Oct 2019
12:12pm, 7 Oct 2019
8,956 posts
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larkim
Rightly or wrongly, we are disproportionately "powerful" in some areas. Security Council seat, G7/8/9 etc membership, NATO etc etc. A nuclear power too. Much of that earned through historical power that no longer would persist if tested. But there are plenty of areas where we are held in high esteem - our military is regarded as one of the best organised, operated etc. Might not be the mightiest, but highly regarded nonetheless. Where we are really exposed is in trade terms - we don't produce much, we don't have a reputation for being an efficient labour force / market, we are losing ground in the service sector, financial centres are drifting slowly away from traditional bases such as London. All of which makes the Brexit rationale more daft - the one area where we can remain as part of the powerful group to address our own weaknesses, is the one area we are seeking to remove ourselves from!!! |
Oct 2019
12:12pm, 7 Oct 2019
12,222 posts
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richmac
Using the Quitter British exceptional delusion as a metric surely we should be looking at Rome or Greece as being a bit ace? i mean Britain being at the forefront of stuff (apart from stupid political ideas) is now historical as opposed to current? |
Oct 2019
12:29pm, 7 Oct 2019
9,170 posts
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rf_fozzy
The UK does indeed pull more than it's weight on the international stage, because of the quality of the armed forces, seats at various tables etc (all of which are seen as reasons to leave the EU), but the point missed is that whilst some of it is for post-WW2/empire reasons, part of the reason that it persists is that we are in the EU and our membership and close partnerships with both France and Germany (from the EU) and US in such organistations like the security council and G8 and NATO etc means that up until Trump/Brexit, the post-WW2 rules-based world order persisted and allowed aggressive tendedencies to be at least partially controlled (*not* saying things were perfect. Iraq war 2 being a massive mistake). Brexit, as I see it, is partly a reaction (at least from the true elite - JRM et al) to the slow wain of "Western" power towards China and SE Asia and eventually Africa. They want to shift our alignments and particularly finance towards that area of the world as they see it as the way to maintain that power they've always had. Which isn't going to work. Brexit and Trump are leading to an undermining of the "western" rules based system which means instead of using the soft power we have to instigate change in places like China, things are instead back-sliding in favour of "strong men" and authoritarianism. (This may be a blip, it may not). The EU has the approach right (which is why we should stay in it), that the bloc has more clout and so can affect soft change as the dominance of SE Asia starts to take hold. And we can influence important things like, for example, environmental policy to combat climate change, rather than everything being about money and a race to the bottom. Because in this, have no mistake (a) we all lose and (b) the UK will lose faster. |
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Oct 2019
12:31pm, 7 Oct 2019
9,171 posts
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rf_fozzy
Rich - the analogy of the EU "crumbling" like Rome did that Brexiters like to use has always struck me as odd given that they look back on the former British Empire with rose tinted glasses.
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Oct 2019
12:37pm, 7 Oct 2019
32,647 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
Reading fozzy's critique above made me suddenly think of Orwell, 1984 - Oceania (UK and US), Eurasia (Europe and W Russia), Eastasia (rest of Asia). Obviously written before EU (or even EEC), and when Churchill still spoke of United States of Europe meaning "everyone except UK". Things are feeling dystopian. 
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Oct 2019
12:50pm, 7 Oct 2019
2,314 posts
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J2R
One of the most dismal (but sadly common) misunderstandings resulting from British exceptionalist thinking is that we could somehow leave Europe and go into 'partnership' with the US. Any such relationship would, of course, be extremely unequal, particularly with Trump on the throne. We would basically be trading with the US exclusively on US terms, having to do exactly what they want, with zero say. Chlorine-washed chicken here we come.
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Oct 2019
12:54pm, 7 Oct 2019
32,650 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
BBC gave what sounded like a weird grilling to a Remainer (Tory, I think) on R4 yesterday about poor food standards and safety standards in USA. Gave the example of 1% (or maybe it was 0.1%?) popcorn with rat droppings is acceptable in USA but EU has zero tolerance. Seemed like a fair example to me of going to US based rules being a backward step but BBC interviewer was very dismissive. All in the interest of "balance"?
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Oct 2019
1:41pm, 7 Oct 2019
9,172 posts
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rf_fozzy
Just in case you're worried about the judgement in Scotland this afternoon. I point you to David Allen Green: twitter.com Basically the court declined to issue an order to make sure the govt complies with the Benn Act because the govt promised in court to comply with the Benn Act. So, in his own word, Johnson surrendered |
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Oct 2019
2:26pm, 7 Oct 2019
2,315 posts
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J2R
The trouble is that Cummings would probably think it quite cool to break that promise, and loads of Brexit supporters would agree with him. Yes, there would be repercussions to doing so, but would they be immediate enough to stop us leaving on October 31?
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