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Oct 2019
11:21am, 4 Oct 2019
2,322 posts
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TomahawkMike
Ignoring the EU for a minute (and I appreciate the irony but am looking purely at UK)... i must confess I don't understand how a UK country can get independence in terms of how this affects citizens. Those of us who are UK citizens are are currently all allowed to travel around, live and work (or not) anywhere in the UK whichever part we were born in and whoever are parents are. Does this mean if you were born in the UK you have to chose which is your own country as soon as one gets independence? Or will you automatically be excluded based on where you currently live or where you were born, or based on the same for parents/grandparents? We are pretty mixed up now in terms of marriages/births and many of us like to move around the UK in our lives as do our offspring. i think I would object strongly to someone telling me that part of the Union was now effectively not part of my birthright and as such would want a vote in any independence referendum, wherever I lived, if one of them want to exclude me and my family. The mechanism is unclear. maybe once an independence referendum is held again we all have a couple of weeks to move location so that at such and such a date the citizenship is fixed based on domicile!. (Tongue in cheek). Clearly I am missing information but then like brexit maybe nobody thinks these referendums though enough
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Oct 2019
11:22am, 4 Oct 2019
2,308 posts
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J2R
Quick question...Does the decision to leave the EU have to come as a result of a referendum? Let's say we're heading for a No Deal exit, and at the last minute, Parliament forces through a revocation of Article 50. There's a subsequent GE and Johnson gets in with a large majority (bear with me, Chrisull...). Could his government then simply pass an act of parliament withdrawing the UK from the EU, without putting it back to the people? I believe it could.
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Oct 2019
11:30am, 4 Oct 2019
2,323 posts
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TomahawkMike
It would be difficult not to mention this as part of the manifesto parties would need to state a position by default of what the others say) in which case whoever gets a majority effectively has the go ahead anyway? So yes.
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Oct 2019
11:32am, 4 Oct 2019
8,914 posts
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larkim
Absolutely no doubt it could. Sovereignty of parliament and all that.
However, a govt that did that without having been elected on a manifesto with that specific commitment in it would have to be very confident that all of it's MPs supported that approach.
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Oct 2019
11:41am, 4 Oct 2019
32,607 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
J2R, I'd say no, there's no need to have a referendum. But the convention would be the major constitutional change is put to the people. But he (Johnson) could argue that a GE with a clear manifesto was a sufficient mandate.
TMike - I think we would need a separate thread on the pros and cons of countries or regions breaking away within the UK. Scottish (and any other area of the UK) independence is a complicated subject.
But my tuppenceworth - an independent Scotland would be very unlikely to have barriers to entry, residence, visiting or any other barriers to people from England or any other part of the former UK. In fact, it is likely to have active positive immigration policies for applicants many and most countries (as we have a declining population and require immigration for economic benefit). This would be something to be challenged and made clear during any Independence campaign.
If it were the case that English visitors or immigrants were welcomed, would that help you?
Regarding who would be eligible to vote for independence, I think that it was anyone resident in Scotland for a period of X months before the ref. It was not parentage, nationality, heritage, ethnicity or any other reason. It welcomed other nationals resident in the country to vote. I think that was the case (will go check) and I think that is a very valid way to do it. Inclusive. If you are "Scottish" and you live in America or England, then there may be a way for you to vote, I'm not sure, but I didn't think so. Perhaps if you had a Scottish address too?
But as I say, I think this discussion would get lost in the much more immediate Brexit discussion!  G
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Oct 2019
11:42am, 4 Oct 2019
2,324 posts
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TomahawkMike
Yep. Agree for another day perhaps..
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Oct 2019
11:43am, 4 Oct 2019
2,325 posts
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TomahawkMike
I also regret that Rory, much as he is a breathe of fresh air, has decided to fill the news with his mayoral bid when we have better things for journals to be reporting
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Oct 2019
11:46am, 4 Oct 2019
32,608 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
Ooh, just googled it and it was only British, Commonwealth and European citizens, resident in Scotland (plus a few others not resident but registered to vote in Scotland e.g. armed forces). Interestingly not other nationalities resident in Scotland. I didn't know that. Not relevant to TMike's question, but if you were e.g. Pakistani national and living in Scotland and wanted to vote you couldn't. Hmmm.
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Oct 2019
11:49am, 4 Oct 2019
5,375 posts
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jda
There are plenty of us who object to being told that EU citizenship along with its advantages is no longer to be part of our birthright but others (specifically brexiters including govt ministers such as Patel) who are quite smugly delighted at the prospect of stripping us of these rights.
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Oct 2019
11:49am, 4 Oct 2019
15,305 posts
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Chrisull
J2R - I'd imagine he could. If we revoked, that would count for me as a "black swan event" that could lead to big electoral changes. A general election takes precedence over a referendum mandate if it is more recent. The last GE2017 was interpreted as both parties being leave even though it wasn't clear Labour were. So Johnson if he won a majority could argue that. For that reason I'd rather we didn't just revoke, but had a 2nd referendum. I'm happy for a 3rd one IF AND ONLY IF Leave were to lose the second one as well.
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