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Oct 2021
9:29am, 31 Oct 2021
8,110 posts
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TeeBee
Thanks SPR, that'll be the reason my coach regularly threw in 10s hill sprints at the end of my easy runs, I guess.
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Oct 2021
9:53am, 31 Oct 2021
7,212 posts
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FenlandRunner
The point I was trying to extract, very badly. Is this.
Unless the runner is a newbie, the runner will have an athletic background. Many on here have been running a lot longer than me, and I've already banked almost sixteen years.
So I agree entirely that for a relative newbie going from 25 mpw average to 35 mpw average will have the desired effect.
But if you've been at this game for a decade, you will have had years of higher and years of lower. What will the effect of going from 25 to 35 be for a more seasoned runner?
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Oct 2021
10:03am, 31 Oct 2021
1,225 posts
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Big_G
FR, I would hazard a guess that for a more seasoned runner, there will still be benefit. How much isn't possible to quantify, but then it isn't possible to quantify for a newer runner either as we are all different. My take on it is that the individual is where they are with their fitness at that point in time, and if 25 miles is where they are currently, that is fine. 35 will help though, in my very unprofessional opinion!
Maybe a more seasoned runner can more quickly go from 25-35-45-55 if they want (compared to a newer runner), being careful each step of the way? I know when I have come back from injury I tend to ignore the 10% rule that is often given as a guideline for newer runners when trying to up the distance. If I had been running say 55 miles a week a month prior, starting at 30 and then the next week 33, and then the next 37 doesn't seem right for me. I know I can fairly safely go 30, 40, 50 in successive weeks, for example.
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Oct 2021
10:27am, 31 Oct 2021
3,903 posts
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J2R
FR, I would count myself as a reasonably seasoned runner, and I know that going from 25mpw to 35mpw provides a worthwhile boost. The gain from mileage isn't just long term resilience which you build up over time, it's also increased mitochondria production which helps your aerobic capacity. However seasoned a runner you are, if you drop back your mileage substantially, you will start to lose your aerobic fitness before too long.
Big_G, I think you're right that a seasoned runner who has done, say, 50mpw, not too long ago can safely get back up there much more quickly than a newbie runner could, as you do retain what I think of as resilience over long periods. Some of this may be physical differences in the muscles and tendons as a result of long term exercise, but it may also be to do with the fact that seasoned runners tend to run better, as in with a running gait which is less likely to lead to injury.
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Oct 2021
10:56am, 31 Oct 2021
7,214 posts
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FenlandRunner
Thanks Big_G and J2R, really helpful.
And to finish, how is 'easy' or 'slow' defined? Is it 5km pace +2 minutes or +3 minutes (per mile). So if 5km pace 7:30 minutes/mile would easy/slow be 9:30 or 10:30 minutes/mile?
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Oct 2021
11:08am, 31 Oct 2021
2,480 posts
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Canute
FR you raise a very important issue regarding training for runners who have been running for many years.
In part, this is why I brought the elderly runners Ed Whitlock and Gene Dykes into this discussion. In the case of Whitlock, during his 3 hour low aerobic sessions he ran with a shuffling gait but during his 5K and 10K races he exhibited an amazingly graceful stride. I suspect the foundation for this was the interval training he did in his fifties. It is also probable that he suffered much less of the decline in muscle strength that is well recognised in old age (sarcopenia). It is probable that he had a unique foundation of intense training in his fifties and genes for longevity. We are all different but there are general principles that we need to apply to ourselves as individuals based on our particular strengths and weaknesses.
I too agree that hill sprints are a very useful form of training for both sprinters and distance runners. Arthur Lydiard recommended hill sprints, especially at the transition from the base-building stage into the race-specific preparation phase. However he did not place as much emphasis on short hills as Brad Hudson, mentioned in the article by Tom Craggs on the foundation of speed, linked by above SPR.
For long distance runners, the ability to maintain an efficient powerful stride throughout the race is very valuable. I suspect that short hill sprints are one of the safest ways of developing this ability.
For a novice, it is useful to define easy in relation to 5 Km pace. Mature athletes might adapt according to their experience, but even mature ahtletes need to bear in mind that easy must really be easy. As I have stated on variuous occasions in blogs and threads in the past, I personally find breathing rate is a useful guide. That is largely because coordination of breathing and limb movement allows me to focus on the rhythm of running. Even at very slow paces (e.g. 12 min/mile) I tune into and enjoy the rhythm of running.
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Oct 2021
11:23am, 31 Oct 2021
7,215 posts
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FenlandRunner
My interests are two-fold; personal, my focus for the short-medium term is 5km. I will not 'race' beyond that distance; and coaching, I have a number of athletes that I want to help to the best of my ability. This is very useful. Thanks Canute.
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Oct 2021
12:41pm, 31 Oct 2021
3,904 posts
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J2R
I'm with Canute there - use breathing as a guide to what's easy. Personally, I usually tend to run anything from 2 to 3 mins/mile slower than 5K pace, without being too bothered about precise pace. I have also often run at a pace quite a bit slower, when running with others, and that's also OK as long as form can be maintained.
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Oct 2021
2:04pm, 31 Oct 2021
75,070 posts
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Gobi
J2R - adults think speedwork can bypass the need for consistent training and a good base.
Most people never build enough base.
There is no magic speedwork session but of course the right speedwork has a place in the correct plan.
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Oct 2021
2:20pm, 31 Oct 2021
11,042 posts
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jda
It's interesting to debate precisely what specific speed sessions will be most effective at providing the icing on the cake, but for me the most important take-home message from "polarised" training is really just that a large majority of training should be done in a steady aerobic zone. This is where the bulk of the trainable improvement lies, and - by virtue of being low intensity - this approach also allows for a virtually unlimited training volume, depending on the athlete in question. Everyone has their limit, but it's likely to be much higher for Z1/Z2 running than Z4/Z5.
I've sometimes done a bit of plyometric training (mostly hops) to try to build a bit of spring and resilience without the anaerobic load that comes with proper intervals. I don't know if it works but the book seemed convincing 
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