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Jan 2022
9:58am, 16 Jan 2022
8,394 posts
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Northern Exile
Without wanting to derail the current discussion, there was 'lots' if relocation at tonight's night o! (Much of it micro relocation, but still requiring relocation skills)
I've been following this with interest. Fozzy, would you say that orienteering skills (such as learning to relocate etc) are absolutely relevant to the average runner equipped with GPS? If you're a fell runner who is wont to disappear into the wilds, I can see the utility - and I am trying to learn such skills myself - but on the basis that this is the Garmin thread and the subject under discussion is the tools we have at our disposal.... well, that's what I'm pondering on.
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Jan 2022
12:18pm, 16 Jan 2022
16,221 posts
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rf_fozzy
I'm very biased NE, but yes, I think orienteering skills are critical to a fell runner/walker.
Wouldn't day it's critical to do them as fast as you would when be when orienteering, but I think you need to be able to do them.
Things like basic map interpretation, distance judgement, spatial awareness, relocation (which is hard!), map orientation, basic route choice I think are all genuine useful and transferable skills (that list is not exhaustive, but one skill which is frequently mentioned in taking bearings is actually not really that important - because whilst useful at times, generally the other skills dominate)
If you keep them practised, there's no chance of failure as always exists when completely reliant on tech.
I think the place for tech is tracking and to be used in conjunction/as a support to the basic skills. There's definitely a place for it, but I don't think it should become dominant to the point that you're not using any of the key skills.
Maybe it is philosophical point, but I think when you become reliant on tech to think for you, you then stop thinking yourself (which is bad enough - for me) but then that's what leads to incidents on the fells.
Anyway, you're right this thread is the wrong place for this discussion - we can move it to the fell runners or the orienteering thread for more discussion.
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Jan 2022
12:48pm, 16 Jan 2022
8,395 posts
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Northern Exile
Thanks for that Fozzy, good answer (if not a little bit biased :-)) I have my own thoughts on this in the context of fell running and I generally try to couch it in terms of the most difficult or worst possible scenario, which in my experience could be doing a night support on a big round in the middle of winter in howling wind and rain/snow. In those circumstances a map in your hand is going to be a bit of a hindrance. GPS can be a massive advantage when in these situations, irrespective of any moralistic views on the rights or wrongs of it. All that said, even rolling up a jacket sleeve to look at a watch track can be a major issue if you've just spent 10 minutes trying to get your overmitt tucked under the cuff.
I've a lot more to say on this subject, some of it controversial and more properly a topic for a different thread,but just let me say that I've learned the hard way not to rely on GPS alone and I always carry a map, compass and occasionally a barometric altimeter. On Friday I had a strip map for my intended route but went deliberately off piste in fading light, looking for a specific fell top. The result was a tremendous Fail, I had no idea of the location of my intended destination and I ended up in quite the wrong place before we had to abandon. All a long winded way of saying that I wish that a) I had GPS with me and b) I should have been better prepared 🙂
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Jan 2022
4:39pm, 16 Jan 2022
26,128 posts
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Lizzie Whizz
[When Helegant's GPS disagreed with the map and the features in bad weather on a top during her LEJOG, I felt that my minor mistrust of tech was healthy]
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Jan 2022
5:15pm, 16 Jan 2022
8,396 posts
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Northern Exile
Lizzie, in my experience GPS is very (very) seldom incorrect and modern day receivers are both highly selective and have excellent gain. If there is ever an error, you can sometimes attribute it to minor axial or ephemeral shift, but you're talking very small increments.... I would say 99 times out a hundred nowadays it's due to poor processing software or an Internet dependency - not forgetting operator error of course 🙂
I know this is just as polarised an opinion as Fozzy's views on orienteering skills, so I apologise for that. I have a lifetime of working in radio and satellite communications behind me and know the realities of GPS and similar systems, it does tend to colour my judgement.
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Jan 2022
6:02pm, 16 Jan 2022
20,278 posts
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flanker
I'd agree with NE about modern GPS being accurate 99% (I'd say 99.99% of the time, and if it doesn't agree with the map then you're probably reading the map wrong :-). With the one caveat: that in a built-up are with tall metal and glass buildings it can get confused (i.e. in central London, the only place mine's gone AWOL).
However I'd also agree with fozzy that the orienteering skills are relevant to the fell runner, especially now many races are banning the use of GPS. I know mine have become very rusty with lack of use, especially in terms of relating distance on a map to time on foot, and maintaining that general awareness of location and registering navigational aids.
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Jan 2022
6:22pm, 16 Jan 2022
5,668 posts
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um
Not so much Garmin, but OS on a phone. I've been disappointed how much of the country (NF, SWCP, Peak District) doesn't have decent (or any) phone coverage. So unless the maps are already downloaded to the phone, relying on them is very iffy. I remember crossing Kinder and having the phone show me clearly where I was (GPS arrow), just no background map to go with it.
I do print out OS maps on A4 and carry them in a airport security zip bag rather than the hassle of full OS maps. And have a garmin for distance & elevation.
As flanker - 'distance on a map' only really works if I know where I am most of the time and mentally tick off features as I cover them. Although I have been known to be struggling and then suddenly realise 'Oh, that's where I am and those paths I was following are not the paths on the map'. Even less than 5 miles from home!
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Jan 2022
6:29pm, 16 Jan 2022
16,594 posts
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larkim
But surely anyone going out downloads the relevant os maps bits via the app in advance so that phone coverage isn't an issue? Especially if you're going long enough that a map is properly necessary.
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Jan 2022
6:30pm, 16 Jan 2022
20,279 posts
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flanker
We've all been there um (or is it just us two?!)  My common mistake is to see a green RoW on the map and assume, rather than checking carefully, that it will also be a path on the ground. It's amazing how often there is nothing on the ground for a RoW, but is a similar path/trod nearby that I convince myself is the green line on the map.
I find OpenMapping is generally far better for finding trods and paths than an OS Map. Especially around here as I've added them all
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Jan 2022
7:10pm, 16 Jan 2022
5,674 posts
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um
I agree flanker, but OM (around here, SE Wilts & South Coast) shows lots of paths that are on private land, and not rights of way. So I have to be ready with 'Oh, sorry, I was confused', if confronted by an irate landowner. Although generally, so far, farmers/owners have all been quite friendly even if I'm on their land.
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