The sub 3.30 marathon thread
190 watchers
25 Feb
4:29pm, 25 Feb 2024
7,337 posts
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Oscar the Grouch
Good work. That's a decent pace. đ
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25 Feb
4:46pm, 25 Feb 2024
4,006 posts
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tipsku
HOD, that's a good pace for a 20 miler, under 9. I did 17.5 mi or 28k in 2:52 hours, 9:52 pace, AVG HR 139. It felt nice and easy and it was beautiful down at the lake. It was also the first time I didn't take anything for a run over 2:30 hours. I had 3 weeks of high mileage (56, 62, 59) and I felt that today, the legs were pretty heavy on the final climb back to the city. Looking forward to an easier week next week. |
27 Feb
9:59am, 27 Feb 2024
2,659 posts
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ptr_runner
Just watched a video by Phily Bowden about marathon workouts this morning. She includes several examples including a 3:30 goal: |
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27 Feb
10:17am, 27 Feb 2024
2,660 posts
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ptr_runner
Here's me getting all mixed with my pacings (as usual). I ran a new half marathon PB at the weekend. I ran a 1:35.27 at the end of an 80km training week, so I'm pretty sure there's some time left to take off that. The FE marathon predictor suggests that would see me doing a full marathon in 3:35.00 at an average pace of 5:06/km. When I'm looking at my training plan, and trying to craft the quality sessions, like those suggested in the video I linked above, the paces are often linked to Half pace (HMP) or full pace (MP). Where I'm getting myself in a muddle is the distinction between MP and "easy". In my normal day to day running, I'll sit quite happily around that 5 minute mark per km. HR zone 2, very comfortable and on days when I'm well hydrated and not too tired, I'll be under 5:00/km. In the "session 1" in that video above, the workout looks like this: 5km easy 5km MP 5km easy 8km MP 5km easy Can you see my conundrum? I'd just run the whole thing at 5:00/km and there'd be no variation in pace. I think for a run of that distance, I might need to drop my easy pace to 5:15/km but that's still not exactly a big gap. Should a marathon pace workout like that not have some "harder" running in it? If I look at my goal marathon time of around 3:20, then the MP would be 4:45/km and that feels more like a "workout" than the 3:35 pacing would. Am I just overthinking this all? I'm going mad with numbers now. Appreciate your thoughts! |
27 Feb
10:43am, 27 Feb 2024
2,520 posts
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SailorSteve
Other, more data-savvy folk will be along with some quality insights in a bit Iâm sure, but I you offer a couple of thoughts. Firstly, congratulations on the half pb! Thatâs a great indicator that youâre in good nick, with more to come. Iâm excited for youđ Secondly, (without having looked at the videos) your narrative does suggest to me that your âeasyâ stuff should indeed be easier. I say this because once youâve established what average pace youâve actually achieved in a marathon, Iâm sure youâll agree that that pace is anything but âeasyâ by the end. So, in my non-data informed way of running, I would deliberately ease back on what might already feel a comfortable effort level for the âeasyâ sections, in order to have the âheadroomâ to push into âcomfortably hardâ for the âmarathon paceâ effort bits. Perhaps try to avoid looking at your watch âin runningâ and just see what the pace outputs are afterwards based on how your body felt? And to those who say âI canât run slower than my existing easy training paceâ I just say that it takes practice. Developing the sense of, and ability to select between different paces and effort levels is a skill worth honing. As you were! |
27 Feb
10:47am, 27 Feb 2024
2,250 posts
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auburnette
I run mainly by heart rate. Easy pace will never see me go into Z3 - the whole run will be at Z2. Marathon pace is definitively in Z3 verging on Z4. I find keeping an eye on HR really helpful to avoid overcooking it in the race itself.
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27 Feb
12:36pm, 27 Feb 2024
4,014 posts
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tipsku
Thank you for sharing that video here. I watched it yesterday and took notes of the workouts she proposed. I might try the session you mentioned next Sunday. I just have to shorten the 5ks to 4ks to fit the course around a lake which is 24k. As to your question about easy pace, I can just venture a guess what you could do. I'm doing pretty much what auburnette is doing. I run by HR too, mostly in the bottom half of my Z2, i.e. from 133-140. Due to a little cardiac drift which is almost unavoidable after 90 minutes, I'll see a slight increase in the final hour of a long run so some splits may be around 142-143 but I try to keep the avg HR for the splits within a 5 bpm range for an easy run, i.e. start the first kms at 137 and finish the run at 142 if it's over 90 minutes. For shorter runs, I can minimise cardiac drift to 0, sometimes, HR even drops on easy runs under an hour after the first 4-5 km. Depending on fatigue on the day, that range of 133-140ish gives me paces between 5:40-6:10 min/km. I usually don't go near the top limit of my Z2, 150. I sometimes do it just to see how fast I can run then and that lets me run about 5:15-20 so closer to target MP of just under 5:00. On a normal day, MP starts in Z3 (151-161) for me and during the run, it'll creep up into Z4 (162-171). I ran Leipzig at an average of 166, the first half had splits from 158-165 and in the second half it went over 166 up to 171. I just had a look at your easy run on February 13, you start pretty easy at 133 for km 2 (I always disregard the first because HR needs a bit to catch up) and then you finish the run at 151 for km 11. That's a pretty significant HR drift. Pace here around 4:56-5:06, so very close to MP here. The drift tells me that it's not really easy. Similar cases on the 12th, 19th, 22nd. In your LR on the 16th, you have a pretty stable HR which stayed around 144-146 after the first couple of kms for paces around 5:15-25. You said that you were just plodding but maybe that's the real easy pace for you. My easy runs always feel like I'm just plodding  On the 23rd, you have another easy run where your HR stays pretty stable around 149-150 after the first 2 km at 134 and 146. Pace here around 5:00 +/-5 s. So on some days, easy works out at that pace but mostly I would recommend going a bit slower, more towards 5:30. As I said, I sometimes have those days when I can sustain a high end Z2 run and feel good about it and I don't experience much cardiac drift. So moving forward, I would monitor what HR is doing. If it moves from the lower half of Z2 to the upper half early in the run, slow down a bit. |
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27 Feb
3:37pm, 27 Feb 2024
2,251 posts
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auburnette
Agree with everything tipsku said! I think you could get a faster marathon than 3:35 off that half time (I have run 3:35 and my PB is almost 5 minutes slower) but this relies on you being well trained for the marathon, ie having appropriate volume and sufficient long runs in the bank. If 5:00/km is a Z2 run then you could run faster in the marathon assuming you have time to build that aerobic base. If it were me I'd work to a faster marathon pace, maybe 3:20 but monitor how long runs felt and maybe set off conservatively in the race. |
27 Feb
8:21pm, 27 Feb 2024
1,873 posts
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Mark J
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27 Feb
8:22pm, 27 Feb 2024
1,874 posts
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Mark J
The above is what I'm basing my pacing on currently ptr_red nose runner
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