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Oct 2017
11:16am, 10 Oct 2017
27,626 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
I did forget Chris, you're right. I remember your multi marathon analysis blog with relish. My apologies! Good to hear your are in positive place with your current fitness and strength. Sounds like a great starting point for a 12 month sub 3:15 campaign. Go for it!
Steve, love your lo-fi approach to training and racing. Refreshing, amongst all us angsters!
I was very happy with my watch on Sunday - didn't lose signal, display of Overall Pace, Mile Pace and Current pace (5s ave, so not too jumpy) let me manage my run fine. Overall Pace behind? - need to speed up a bit and see Mile Pace improve for e.g. next 2 miles. Don't let Current Pace get too quick, or I'm overcooking it. Slow down, but make sure Mile Pace doesn't creep up too far etc. Check Garmin isn't miles ahead of mile markers. But don't panic if one is, here or there, as long as next one is there or thereabouts.
Really easy, just a glance at a time. No calculations required at all.
That Mile 25 marker being early by the way - I saw it as "Mile 25 is nearly here, there's a line on the ground on the hill going down, but we're just sign posting it at this corner to make you feel happy!" Worked for me!  G
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Oct 2017
11:21am, 10 Oct 2017
2,336 posts
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K5 Gus
Welcome to the thread Pete - great run at Chester.
I think, that in retrospect, doing that hill race on Saturday was a mistake - still got DOMS in the quads which is less than ideal. Doh, schoolboy error !!
Think I'm in about 3:10 - 3:12 shape on a good course and with decent weather. Rannoch is a bit lumpy, though thankfully the hills are around halfway, rather than near the end like Chester. So, depending on weather hope to get my name on the sidebar if the legs have eased up !
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Oct 2017
11:27am, 10 Oct 2017
3,009 posts
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larkim
@Chrisull - I 100% agree on the downhills in principle - I remember in my very early days of running a chap I talked to was strongly of the view that running downhill fast and maintaining (or at least attempting to maintain) HR was key and a "free win" that many runners missed out on.
But the point for me really was that unless the descent was nice and gradual the wear and tear on my quads in particular meant I didn't actually change pace from the flat, so I lost out on the benefit of a bit of pace injection. And then on the flats after those sections I had a bit of recovery to do from the descents. I've posted before about being a crap downhill runner, and I suspect that played into it at Chester in the latter half. The run down from the premature mile 25 sign down to the river should be a fantastic opportunity to gain a few BPM back and feel refreshed(ish) to the finish, but I actually found it gruelling and struggled to maintain pace.
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Oct 2017
11:35am, 10 Oct 2017
27,627 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
I treat downhills in anything other than the shortest of races (XC) or end of race (great 1.5 mile downhill finish in Alloa half marathon - I just thrash that and assume an ambulance will pick me up if I face plant!) that you use downhills to rest, rather than to press for a pace advantage?
Sharp downhills are particularly hard because going all out leg turn over will have significant impact forces which, unless you are very strong and downhill conditioned, will take their toll later in a marathon (e.g. Loch Ness 2012 downhill start for me - ouch!) or will braking to keep speed in check will also cause you to work harder, for less benefit.
I went down that mile 25 hill slower than an enthusiastic young fellow with a beard who overtook me (not many did!) but of course, as soon as it flattened out, my rest on that downhill allowed me to push on past him. Swings and roundabouts, downs and ups! G
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Oct 2017
11:36am, 10 Oct 2017
4,892 posts
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chunkywizard
So 2 weeks to go then.. gulp. Still not sure on what pace to go out at. I'm guessing 3.15 is a bit keen for me so maybe go out at 3.20 pace, but I reserve the right to change my mind. Ultimately a PB is what I'm after (sub 3:24) but I feel I could take quite a bit off that time.
Next dilemma is my schedule this week. I know it shouldn't make much difference if I keep to the general distance and paces in P&D but I think I'd rather do parkrun hard rather than 3x 1600m on Wednesday (it should give me a good indication of fitness I feel). Would I be stupid to keep 12miles on the Sunday after a flat out parkrun?
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Oct 2017
11:37am, 10 Oct 2017
11,029 posts
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paul a
Bin the parkrun and stick to the schedule would be my advice.
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Oct 2017
11:47am, 10 Oct 2017
3,010 posts
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larkim
So after the elation, I'm now into critical review time. The key for me, looking back on my MP miles and the 20 mile race including 15 MP miles was why I was consistently hitting 7:17 pace there, but unable to translate that into a 3:11 on the day so that in the end I had just 31s in hand out of 11700 (a 0.26% margin of error!) with a 7:25 average pace.
Was I too cautious in the first half in restricting myself to the pace of the pace group, thus arriving at half way on 7:20 pace? Was there some "free time" in there that I could have banked? Unlikely I suspect.
Second half was more or less bang on 7:30 pace average and whilst there were times in there that I definitely felt quite good mentally, particularly once I'd got into the 22/23 mile stage, I don't think on Sunday I could have found more over that last 13.1 miles.
Or was I reaping the benefit in those last miles from having deliberately tried to push the training paces a little bit further forward meant that I was able to manage an acceptable level of positive split without a detonation. Should all runners target MP runs to be a bit faster than they plan to race MP at, certainly in the early stages? Or perhaps, should MP be defined better as target MP minus 5 seconds or so to build in that resilience?
It's the trick of the lure of an arbitrary time target isn't it. At least for a 41-49 year old male you can argue that 3:15 has more than just symbolic meaning in the UK, but if I had had no specific target on Sunday I wonder if I would have let the pace slip a little in the second half, or gone more gung-ho in the first half. Whilst HappyG reported that I looked fresh at the end, I'm fairly sure that was a double whammy of complete emotional satisfaction in achieving the A goal and the good fortune (or good execution) to have run the race on the knife edge of performance and just coming in on the right side of it. If there were any more seconds to be gained, I don't today know where they were (apart from the grass at the end!).
I'm definitely not in the mindset that I now need to be signing up for a spring marathon in 2018, so I won't be answering these questions any time soon. I hope to be able to find motivation to keep up the 15-20 mile long runs plus enough other interesting stuff to keep me in good shape and build on Sunday's run as part of my body's training, but I won't be testing 26.2 again soon.
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Oct 2017
11:55am, 10 Oct 2017
11,030 posts
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paul a
98 to go larkim.
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Oct 2017
11:57am, 10 Oct 2017
27,628 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
Ah, you say that today larks, but in a few weeks, you'll be clicking on Entry Central or elsewhere same as rest of us!
You did look fresh, but I'll completely accept that you gave it your all in that second half. It is, in my opinion, about balancing exactly on that knife edge, of just pushing your hardest, without imploding completely. It is a constant self measuring activity and I find it mentally fascinating how it ebbs and flows. You should try ultras. Just like that, but on steroids (not literally, obv!)
I actually do set myself the MP target of "a bit quicker" and also the race pace target (to allow for a bit of over distance) I probably did my MP at 7:1x, not 7:20 and ran my race looking for under 7:20 not 7:26 right on the edge.
Both the mental discipline and physical resilience build up with experience of more marathons, I believe. So I think you should have every confidence that with a similar build up, you could push a wee bit harder in a marathon in 6 months and target 3:10 with confidence. Just my view though. Well done again.
I just read badbark(?) blog of 2:48. That's another cracking read (a pal of ptb's from Belfast?) G
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Oct 2017
12:00pm, 10 Oct 2017
3,011 posts
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larkim
CW - you know my answer - P&D wrote the schedule based on their research / experience / whims. It makes more sense to trust their plan in broad terms, and especially close to the race it seemed the easier option to stick to what they prescribe.
You've got good 5k speed anyway, so 3 x 1600m shouldn't be a hard session (though I made it one!). And whilst you should be more than capable of a hard parkrun followed by a 12 mile MLR the next day, why risk carrying more fatigue into race week than is in the plan?
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