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Sep 2018
3:15pm, 27 Sep 2018
6,700 posts
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Jambomo
" if it was re-imagined as all you described it wouldn't be an industry." Why not? a regulated sex-industry would be just that wouldn't it? I am not sure I see what you mean here.
"And don't make changes because it's... a bit difficult?" That isn't what I mean, by all means make changes where needed. I was only tackling your use of the idea of need. That there can easily be things which may come out once something is banned, that show we perhaps there was a need after all.
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Sep 2018
3:23pm, 27 Sep 2018
5,652 posts
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larkim
If, as we no doubt will in some years from now, got to the stage where animatronics or virtual realities allowed consumers to access the same services that today are only available through physical delivery (i.e. the sex industry from topless dancing all the way through to other services) would you object to that industry HG?
I think your objection has two parts - firstly, women today doing it in the way it is organised and consumed in today's society with all that that brings. And secondly an objection to objectification of physical form.
If you can separate the two, are you more or less passionate about one aspect than the other?
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Sep 2018
3:42pm, 27 Sep 2018
7,563 posts
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GordonG
The issue re exploitation is real and can't be ignored. But that aside, if stripping/prostitution was "organised" so no one was exploited more than any worker may (or may not) be, a friend of mine once came up with a good question:
selling is legal
sex is legal
why is selling sex illegal?
having said that, i still wouldn't want to live next door to a legal brothel either.
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Sep 2018
4:07pm, 27 Sep 2018
5,800 posts
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Helegant
Selling sex is illegal.
Buying sex is not (as far as I know)
Why?
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Sep 2018
4:23pm, 27 Sep 2018
5,802 posts
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Helegant
^ Obviously that's a rhetorical question. My point being that where culture supports one gender and stigmatized the other in an encounter that involves both, it tells us a lot about underlying assumptions. It also means that exploitation is easy. That's the risk that causes me to feel uneasy in any power imbalance.
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Sep 2018
4:28pm, 27 Sep 2018
29,250 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
Yes, Helegant, exactly. And that highlights one of the key imbalances and injustices. The reason is the same as the white male getting "let off" with sexual abuse or assault or rape because it was "high jinks" or was a bit drunk or the worst, because "she was asking for it". No, no, no.
Buying should be illegal. End of.
GordonG, if we're doing "thought experiments" then marijuana growing in nature isn't illegal, but buying or selling it is. Analogous? Sex (not for sale) is completely natural. It's the misuse of it that is the problem. And the marketization (that's not a word, is it?)
And aminamatronics? Sh*t that's coming too isn't it? A whole load of new ethical dilemmas. I think it's still pretty distasteful. In this case, mostly for the user rather than the "machine" (until the machines start thinking and feeling, but that's another whole debate. Have you seen Ex Machina - beware Alicia Vikander!)
No, it's mostly the protection of the person whose body is being sold I think. Primarily practical, secondarily the matter of principle, thirdly the scale and imbalance (men v women, rich vs poor, developed west versus less developed countries etc.).
Jambomo, I've +1'd all your very good points. I think again we're just talking scale here - if it could be fully ideally regulated, without any harm or degradation or anything, sure. But I just don't think it can. And then when I say major change and you say unintended consequences, I can't argue with that, because I don't know the unintended consequences either. But I know the intended ones: stop the trade in women's bodies as a market commodity.
Hmm, some very good thought provoking stuff gals n guys. Thanks.  G
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Sep 2018
4:35pm, 27 Sep 2018
5,655 posts
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larkim
Selling sex isn't illegal in mainland GB, but some of the things associated with that transaction are (pimping, kerb crawling, running a brothel etc). In NI it is illegal.
You're right about the power balance. That's a real issue which affects far more than this narrow part of the male / female discussion.
However I still think, despite HG's resistance to my assumption, that there is some nature in there. We should rise above it given our intellectual capabilities, but humans wouldn't be the only species on the planet to have a procreative relationship that is driven by one sex primarily pursuing the other. If we ignore that base instinct and drive we're overlooking a big barrier to resolving society's issues with sex and gender.
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Sep 2018
4:46pm, 27 Sep 2018
940 posts
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Raemond
There's no evidence that prohibition on buying actually reduces exploitation, though G.
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Sep 2018
4:46pm, 27 Sep 2018
10,098 posts
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Llamadance
What about instances where the power balance is different? Say women buying sex from women or men. Or men going to a dominatrix, where they would generally not have sex. Are those more palatable?
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Sep 2018
5:05pm, 27 Sep 2018
29,251 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
Before we get into that, can I just get on to prohibition, esp as Raemond is academically qualified here, so want to pick her brains.
Prohibition alone, no. But prohibition together with cultural change does, surely. And prohibition leading to practical difficulties and to cultural pressure surely would help accelerate?
e.g. If we still had laws saying that homosexual relationships were illegal, despite every (sane) citizen thinking it should be seen as perfectly normal, the law would still support those who chose to discriminate. But with legal support (and positive support in this case of Anti Discrimination legislation) and suddenly the things my granny might have thought and said are anathema to my son's generation (and fortunately to most of my generation too).
So to me lobbying for law change and advocating cultural change (role models, speaking out, healthy discussion, discrediting inappropriate materials and behaviours etc.) go hand in hand.
I think this stuff is really relevant #metoo etc. It's all part of the same continuum. Not to say it's easy - I've heard debates saying that some women object to being told that they can't be objectified because they like it. I'm not being facetious. I've read various things to that effect.
Tricky stuff. G
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