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Sep 2018
4:12pm, 28 Sep 2018
33,141 posts
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Nellers
Art? Poetry?
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Sep 2018
4:40pm, 28 Sep 2018
29,271 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
They don't occur naturally. They are constructs of human intellect. I'm fine with them being sold. Though there is a school of thought that commissions or state-supported art are of less value because they weren't created independently by the artist. But that's surely a different discussion.  G
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Sep 2018
5:06pm, 28 Sep 2018
29,273 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
Larks, your examples of human medical trials, I don't think people should be paid to do those either. If you "love it" do it for fun, but I bet no one does. You're being paid to risk your body for money. OK, the risk is minimized by strict controls, but actually people have been harmed. And what is the proportion of poorer people vs rich people doing it. That's a great example of how that is *also* a power/money imbalance leading to riskier (possibly not big risk, but some) outcomes *purely because of lack of money*. That is what society should be seeking to drag ourselves out of, surely?
And don't get me started on armed forces. I'm a saddo hippy who thinks no one should have to fight wars either. (Huge respect for those who are employed in the armed forces by the way. Though I'd suggest that the relationship between those killed and maimed in duty and their socio-economic grouping is probably strongly correlated too. Not saying that no officers die, but I better a higher proportion of squaddies do.)
Raemond, your potential link (albeit, inadequate data) between the accepted, permitted business of prostitution and with human trafficking is, I think, a strong argument for prohibition of prostitution and less tolerance of those seeing to monetise young women's bodies. (Not demonising those currently trapped in the business, but supporting them to get out of if and criminalising only those who run the businesses and consume the services.)
It's simple economics. If there is demand, and there is a market, there will be supply and there will be greed and excess. Sex should not be a market. I keep coming back to that. For the good of society and the protection of those who will inevitably be its victims. G
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Sep 2018
10:30pm, 28 Sep 2018
5,670 posts
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larkim
I want to live in your utopia HG. But sadly I don't think it will ever come to pass...
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Sep 2018
12:07am, 29 Sep 2018
1,592 posts
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cackleberry
Are the men who are paying good money for a bit of flesh being exploited when they could have a wife/girlfriend and see it for real, for free??
Or, pay attention to the wife/girlfriend they already have?
If the woman (or male stripper) is doing it of her own free will, then what is the problem? If she is forced, a victim of trafficking etc, then that is entirely wrong.
I watched a documentary about a brothel in Sheffield, all the women said they were there because they loved sex, so why not get paid to do it? Several of them were happily married.
Personally, I find the men who attend such places slightly pathetic. I've only ever been in one strip club out of sheer curiosity. Just seemed a bit sad, like a night club when the lights come up.
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Sep 2018
12:13am, 29 Sep 2018
1,593 posts
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cackleberry
On a side note, I briefly worked as a model for a still life class and was paid money to take my clothes off.
Where does that sit?
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Sep 2018
6:51am, 29 Sep 2018
948 posts
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Raemond
I don't think I made my point about the statistics very clearly - even those deliberately trying to massage the available (and skewed) figures to show a link between a legal sex trade and victims of sex trafficking can't do so convincingly.
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Sep 2018
4:20pm, 29 Sep 2018
5,814 posts
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Helegant
Just a minor point. I took part, voluntarily, in a clinical trial. I was not paid and received no benefit other than knowing, when the drug caused unwelcome and potentially dangerous side effects in me and another volunteer, that the prescribing regime was changed as a result of that experience. I was not exploited except insofar as I chose to be.
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Sep 2018
4:38pm, 29 Sep 2018
3,578 posts
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Cyclops
Just found this thread! I used to work with an infant teacher who had, before she trained as a teacher, danced at the Moulin Rouge. She didn't seem at all exploited (or exploitable) but had enjoyed a couple of years in Paris doing what she loved and learning French, making new friends, having new experiences before settling down to career, husband and children.
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Oct 2018
9:04am, 2 Oct 2018
29,279 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
Cyclops, we've had a couple of examples of "I know this person who did it and liked it." And cackleberry, I really don't trust a TV show saying how great prostitution is. Still life art nude - no problem with that, obviously. It's not sexual. End of.
I was looking for an example of someone who watched Moulin Rouge or Folies Bergere (or anyone really brave who is prepared to say they go to strip bars or brothels?!) and liked it! Because I didn't like Moulin Rouge! Rubbish dancing and singing, like a bad 80s school show, with animals like a cheap circus from the 60s. Anachronistic, tacky and stle-less. And it charges a premium because it has young women half naked. Outrageous, imho.
Helegant, I think that's a great example of how if you remove money from the equation, then exactly the same activity becomes personal choice, altruistic and hence is not just acceptable but actually laudable. (Well done you!) Money is the corruptor.
Cackleberry - yes, exactly, all a bit pathetic for the "customers" true. But to me it's worse than pathetic. It continues to perpetuate (sorry, tautology, I need to get back to work) a "women as commodities, men as buyers" culture which is at best out-dated and at worst dangerous.
Do keep letting me know your view peeps. Esp point 1 at the top - anyone been to half naked shows and want to justify them? G
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