21 Nov
1:06pm, 21 Nov 2024
3,572 posts
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Muttley
But in many cases the complexity of all this is deliberate, as in designed to avoid taxation!
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21 Nov
1:22pm, 21 Nov 2024
293 posts
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Yakima Canutt
Give me an example Mutley. There is nothing complex about buying a farm. There is something complex in gathering investors from different locations to buy the shares in a company from someone who wants to retire and realise his wealth and structure it so that the management (possibly including offspring) in that company can also acquire equity and be shareholders in what they do and also bring in a bank to fund some of it. |
21 Nov
2:36pm, 21 Nov 2024
26,163 posts
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larkim
Muttley wrote: But in many cases the complexity of all this is deliberate, as in designed to avoid taxation! But fundamentally, is there anything wrong with that, if the ways of "avoiding" tax are all entirely legal? If we ignore "off-shoring", perhaps, which could be considered plumbing the depths of possibilities to minimise tax paid to HMRC, if the rules are followed surely it's up to the rule-makers to amend the rules rather than the subjects to choose to make up their own more restrictive rules? As an employee working in a traditional role, there's not much I can do as an employee to reduce tax. I can make pension arrangements, I could buy a bike through a "cycle to work" scheme, I could use salary sacrifice schemes etc, but they are all pushed by the government so I don't think we should consider them immoral in any way. If I was a private consultant, I could operate through a service company or as a sole trader, and that might find some opportunities for following the rules and reducing taxation, but that option's not open to me in my role. But would it be wrong for me to use that approach if I was a consultant, or should I just create a fiction that I am a PAYE employee and find some way to pay over to HMRC the same tax that would be paid if I was on the payroll? |
21 Nov
2:41pm, 21 Nov 2024
23,422 posts
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rf_fozzy
larkim wrote: should I just create a fiction that I am a PAYE employee and find some way to pay over to HMRC the same tax that would be paid if I was on the payroll? Yes. As I've said previously on this thread. Should be a level playing field. No loopholes. |
21 Nov
2:58pm, 21 Nov 2024
10,005 posts
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simbil
larkim wrote: But fundamentally, is there anything wrong with that, if the ways of "avoiding" tax are all entirely legal? Yes, and also No, as it depends on morals/values which are subjective and not objective. All you can reasonably say is its not illegal. Personally find it a bit questionable, but certainly not beyond the pale. There might be good reasons for it too beyond personal gain - such as conscientious objections etc. FWIW I've met accountants with all kinds of moral codes, don't think the field of study defines the moral code, though it may influence it of course! |
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21 Nov
3:13pm, 21 Nov 2024
10,006 posts
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simbil
I'll leave this here, just in case  gov.uk |
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21 Nov
3:35pm, 21 Nov 2024
23,423 posts
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rf_fozzy
rf_fozzy wrote: larkim wrote:should I just create a fiction that I am a PAYE employee and find some way to pay over to HMRC the same tax that would be paid if I was on the payroll? Yes. As I've said previously on this thread. Should be a level playing field. No loopholes. Btw this should be reciprocal so that self-employed people and similar are also entitled to the benefits of salaried individuals - e.g. sick pay. |
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21 Nov
3:37pm, 21 Nov 2024
26,164 posts
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larkim
rf_fozzy wrote: larkim wrote:should I just create a fiction that I am a PAYE employee and find some way to pay over to HMRC the same tax that would be paid if I was on the payroll? Yes. As I've said previously on this thread. Should be a level playing field. No loopholes. That's two different things. Should the tax system make it indistinguishable between someone working under PAYE and someone working under a sole trader or private company basis? Yes, I mostly agree it should. Under the current system where it is intentionally and deliberately the case that sole traders and private service company employees may pay less tax on the same net income, should I choose to use Simbil's form and pay over the difference as if I were PAYE? No, I don't think that should be an obligation. Once you've got more money in "your" pocket, then you can choose what to do with it:- - gift to charity - enrich yourself - buy stuff (helping with economic stimulus, or encouraging inflation, or impacting the balance of imports / exports) - use the funds illegally - gift to the government through Simbil's form That's where the morals come in. For me anyway. |
21 Nov
3:47pm, 21 Nov 2024
28,475 posts
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TROSaracen
I wonder if that HMRC voluntary link has EVER been used?
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21 Nov
3:51pm, 21 Nov 2024
26,165 posts
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larkim
In other less tax-related news... bbc.co.uk Arrest warrants from the ICC for Netanyahu, Gallant and Hamas commander. Will make the position of some governments (including ones I personally back) more than a little squirmy. |
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