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Nov 2024
2:01pm, 6 Nov 2024
26,021 posts
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larkim
This is the fundamental issue to me. Was it always the same, but the political parties did a good job of filtering the worst of the worst out from leadership so that when the electorate were faced with choices, it didn't matter too much if the electorate weren't really very good bodies at selecting good choices based on their inherent prejudices (positive and negative ones)?
But with easier access to the electorate via SM etc, have we simply enabled the Trump / Johnson type of politician to demonstrate that they can earn popular voting support precisely by tapping into latent and sometimes downright nasty parts of society's underbelly?
Or is it more like Fields says, that the public are voting in a way which expresses their frustration with the way the world works, even if perhaps they couldn't universally articulate what that "problem" is and what the solutions are?
Countries like Denmark suggest that perhaps it isn't as bad as Fields would suggest; democracy can be trusted, faith in government can persist, despite the social media world. But moving cultures like the UK and USA one to a "scandi" style political culture is not a quick fix - may not ever be achievable.
And if so, are we stuck with characters like Trump being able to dominate elections, right up to the point where their actual performance in government completely falls off a cliff in a way which forces people to seek a positive alternative?
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Nov 2024
2:04pm, 6 Nov 2024
44,167 posts
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Nellers
If it's just down to Social Media making this sort of leader getting elected possible, what happened in 1936 in Germany? Or Italy? Or Spain?
Actually was Franco ever elected? I might have missed the mark with that one.
These things can happen, even in countries that should know better, and the consequences rarely stay within their own borders.
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Nov 2024
2:09pm, 6 Nov 2024
9,620 posts
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Pothunter
Blame King John. He’s the one who transferred power to the people 
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Nov 2024
2:10pm, 6 Nov 2024
5,387 posts
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run free
As said before Harris needed to address the “Migrants coming into the country being given preference over the locals, stealing our jobs, blah blah blah”. When people do not feel secure in their own country they want someone who will do something about. It was a big issue for Brexit, Austria and now the US and I hear else where making the same grumbles. Need to Ensure Maslow’s hierarchy of needs is being met.
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Nov 2024
2:11pm, 6 Nov 2024
44,168 posts
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Nellers
She should have, and she did. She said "It's not happening" (in terms of benefits and jobs to illegals) which was true but didn't win anyone over because people believed Fox et al.
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Nov 2024
2:14pm, 6 Nov 2024
9,622 posts
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Pothunter
Say it first and say it louder.
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Nov 2024
2:14pm, 6 Nov 2024
12,827 posts
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lammo
"I suspect (without a shred of evidence I hasten to add!) that for a huge number of Americans the “sexual assault, general misogyny, racism and criminal convictions” didn’t directly affect them as individuals so if he can promise to fix things that do directly impact them, then it’s worth a punt because the current leaders haven’t been able to anything about that." - pothunter #9619
This sums it up for me, thank you.
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Nov 2024
2:17pm, 6 Nov 2024
26,022 posts
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larkim
We can draw parallels with the Covid period, but ultimately the rise of Fascism in Europe between the two world wars was with a background of stark economic collapse, certainly in Germany. Whilst things are far from perfect currently, we're a long way from that sort of background.
I don't think my questions above all have clear answers. But something has changed, in the US and the UK at the very least, which makes Trumpian style politics popular.
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Nov 2024
2:20pm, 6 Nov 2024
44,169 posts
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Nellers
This has been coming since Thatcher and Reagan. They deregulated the markets and the media and from then on it's been a long slide into this. Oligarchs and poverty. That's the future, and we're going to vote in favour of it at every opportunity.
Sometimes I wonder if this can be turned round in any way and today I'm really not convinced it can.
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Nov 2024
2:21pm, 6 Nov 2024
46,642 posts
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SPR
I've seen a comment somewhere that liberals basically can't really improve things as they are beholden to capitalist interests and lead to the far-right populism when frustration sets in.
Thing is it is basic white Christians that voted for this as a majority. White people of other religions didn't. The breakdown of education by race shows it's only white non-college graduates that voted for Trump in a majority so on the face of it, education isn't the reason. There's no breakdown of by income and race but I can't see that income is a factor in the differences. It's clear the racism is resonating or doesn't bother them.
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