Nov 2024
2:37pm, 6 Nov 2024
6,888 posts
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paulcook
Nellers wrote: This has been coming since Thatcher and Reagan. They deregulated the markets and the media and from then on it's been a long slide into this. Oligarchs and poverty. That's the future, and we're going to vote in favour of it at every opportunity. Sometimes I wonder if this can be turned round in any way and today I'm really not convinced it can. Yes and for those reasons, potentially Trump's rise to power will have less of an impact on those who voted for Harris, and make no immediate personal impact on those who voted for Trump. |
Nov 2024
2:42pm, 6 Nov 2024
44,170 posts
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Nellers
I don't get what you mean by that @paulcook . Sorry.
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Nov 2024
2:50pm, 6 Nov 2024
6,889 posts
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paulcook
"Oligarchs and poverty". Trump won't solve that or change any of it. Still more oligarchs, still more poverty. Those in the middle who voted for Harris will probably still suffer but be able to take some of the blow. Those in poverty who voted for Trump and change will still suffer, still struggle. |
Nov 2024
2:51pm, 6 Nov 2024
22,363 posts
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Chrisull
I've noticed online it's the centrists who are taking it harder than us to the further left (steps in behind fields). This is because there is a wedge, this is an opportunity. The Dems won't take it. Liberalism has failed/is failing. People want a solution and they are willing to take a chance on anyone who might offer it (even if it's crazy like abolish income tax and just put tariffs on everything). Even Rachel Reeves' fairly conventional mildly left of centre budget caused shock waves in the market that took a day or two to settle down, with bonds/gilts briefly resembling the market under Truss's. Laugh at Truss and Kwarteng all you like, but they had a point, the market never gave her a chance (not saying it should have). Ok she chose to blame it on liberal elite establishment, but really truth be told, it's fear of any kind of divergence from the norm by the markets. Now much as I love education and the idea of educating people to help make better (biased to our world view perhaps tho?) choices, a large proportion of people aren't going for that, and don't want to do that. And they will vote for who they want to regardless. Hulk Hogan next? Who knows. But christ if the offer is broadly two similar parties, but one has a crazy, chaotic frontman, then don't be surprised when Hulk gets in. So you have to make something work for them as well. We know for "the squeezed middle" (thank you Ed) that things are getting harder, and if it is for the middle it is far worse down the scale. Dems have got themselves in a pickle because no-one dared address the Supreme Court or electoral college, over here Labour won't dare to reform and simplify the tax system (especially council tax). Why ? Because it's hard, there's no easy answers and no electoral benefits. But this is partially where the problems stem from. Otherwise you are just tinkering around the edges, you can't and don't do anything meaningful and when things get tougher, you get booted out. The opportunity is there, behind someone charismatic, to dare to do something different - if no income tax and tariffs can be a vote winner, then bloody hell surely a left of centre can brainstorm something as radical but likely to make a real difference to change people's lives. Long term planning, and long term differences. I watch the current group of Labour mps, and they are already having their hopes and ambitions crushed out of them by the party machine. Ask most and they will say they want to make positive changes to people's lives. And truth is, in a years time most will understand they barely will. Sanders was neutralised by his own party (and not always right), but hell if you keep on saying that's the way things have to be and grown up politics, expect your message to fall on stony ground. Dare to do something different. |
Nov 2024
2:54pm, 6 Nov 2024
23,385 posts
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rf_fozzy
"with bonds/gilts briefly resembling the market under Truss's" This is not true. It was a small rise for a short time. The Truss was an enormous rise. |
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Nov 2024
2:56pm, 6 Nov 2024
23,386 posts
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rf_fozzy
Comparison between Truss budget and Reeves Budget from 1:45 on here: |
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Nov 2024
2:56pm, 6 Nov 2024
6,890 posts
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paulcook
Chrisull wrote: I've noticed online it's the centrists who are taking it harder than us to the further left (steps in behind fields). This is because there is a wedge, this is an opportunity. The Dems won't take it. Liberalism has failed/is failing. That sums up almost all the traditional media coverage I saw yesterday, this morning and Monday. Most seemed biased, echoey-chamber. Gone into meltdown since and already have the reasons why Trump won despite not saying it beforehand. |
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Nov 2024
3:02pm, 6 Nov 2024
23,387 posts
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rf_fozzy
Chrisull wrote: I've noticed online it's the centrists who are taking it harder than us to the further left (steps in behind fields). Really? This is not supported by the data. Even on this thread. I pointed out several times this was a strongly possible outcome and not to fall into the copium (early voting numbers, Selzer poll etc etc). I even gave several reasons as to why it was likely. As soon as the data started to come in about 1am, this was going to be the outcome. |
Nov 2024
3:09pm, 6 Nov 2024
5,699 posts
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J2R
I know I'm usually one of the more doom-laden people on here, but I wonder how many others share my fear that this really isn't just a 4 year thing America has to get through before sanity has the chance to prevail again? I really cannot imagine, with Trump or Vance in charge, and with the Republican Party in anything like the state it is currently in, that there will be free and fair presidential election in 4 years time. Trump has basically talked about replacing all neutral people in government and the civil service with Republican apparatchiks. The Supreme Court will roll over and do anything he demands of them. And any dissenting opinion is likely to be difficult to make itself heard and will be quickly suppressed with the tech oligarchs being part of the ruling cabal.
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Nov 2024
3:14pm, 6 Nov 2024
5,700 posts
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J2R
Basically I think America has now left the liberal democratic world, for the foreseeable future. I feel desperately sorry for the huge numbers of reasonable liberal minded people there who have to live with this. For me this looks like an event like Iran 1979, where the religious Right take control.
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