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Dec 2019
10:31am, 13 Dec 2019
15,598 posts
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Chrisull
fetch - it is an interesting point on not explaining. I was similarly frustrated, by this stance. However, I know a couple of Labour doorknockers and they were told very often that people didn't like Corbyn, and when asked to say why, they couldn't, they just didn't like him full stop.
I suppose coming in from a philosophical angle, "reason" itself is a pretty flimsy construct, we might be able to reason, but we generally apply reasons and logic to suit our own worldviews, and some philosophers hold that reason isn't very "reasonable".
Perhaps that is what gets some people, when we ask for reasons? It's like asking people to play our game with our rules, and they choose not to. They feel their gut reaction should enough. And to be fair we often go on gut reaction over reason anyway. Hard as though it may be, I think we have to accept this is the case to some extent that people won't and don't have to explain their reasons (although challenge it when it's flung back at us).
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Dec 2019
10:32am, 13 Dec 2019
2,444 posts
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J2R
Yes, I also take issue with the notion (which will no doubt become one of those unquestioned 'truths') that this result shows that the majority of the country are in favour of leaving the EU. It shows no such thing. Yes, the main Brexit party got much the largest share of the vote, but still way short of an overall majority. More importantly, the election wasn't just about Brexit, it was about Johnson vs Corbyn, a celebrity popularity contest, which Johnson won hands down.
This was why it was such a disaster for Jo Swinson firstly to facilitate the election and then spend her time scuppering any possibility of a united front with Labour against a disastrous right-wing takeover. I'm glad she lost her seat - she was absolutely dreadful in her short stint as Lib Dem leader. I only hope the party can recover. I'm also very glad that this is the end of Corbyn as Labour leader, probably the worst leader the party has ever had. I hope 5 years is enough time for them to get themselves back to electability, but they will have to aggressively shake off the deadly stranglehold of Momentum to do so. It's the mid-80s all over again.
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Dec 2019
10:32am, 13 Dec 2019
8,307 posts
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simbil
Dio, if someone supports Bojo and you call Bojo names and his supporters names, you are effectively calling them names.
For balance, when people describe this thread as if it has a single viewpoint it is similarly indirectly insulting.
These are highly charged times, highly charged language kills discussions.
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Dec 2019
10:33am, 13 Dec 2019
6,155 posts
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Dooogs
Morning, everyone.
I'm with Dio - I can't prove that DV = Stander but the posting style and behaviours are uncannily alike if they really are two different people...
Still utterly depressed by the result and by what it says about the current political culture and about the future of the centre-left. Will perhaps blog later rather than rant like last night... 
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Dec 2019
10:35am, 13 Dec 2019
15,599 posts
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Chrisull
Lots of good posts this morning - JB (as always) and Gobi. Long may it continue!
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Dec 2019
10:35am, 13 Dec 2019
15,600 posts
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Chrisull
(and J2R)
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Dec 2019
10:36am, 13 Dec 2019
22,927 posts
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Sushi.
Those figures-
44% Tory
2% Brexit
Aren't even % of total voting population.
They are % of the 67% who voted making them even less of a 'majority'
on the whole
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Dec 2019
10:36am, 13 Dec 2019
15,601 posts
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Chrisull
(and simbil) lol
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Dec 2019
10:36am, 13 Dec 2019
19,013 posts
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DeeGee
Labour supporters are blaming Centrists, remainers and the Lib Dems for the defeat.
I have to say, as a centrist, Lib Dem, remainer who voted Labour in a vague hope that my downtrodden northern town might not have an MP for the party that's never cared about downtrodden northern towns, that I don't find that at all fair.
Still, the followers of the cult of the magic grandad refuse to accept that the reason Labour lost last night was because of the magic grandad.
And the very fact that I'm now being personally blamed for Labour's loss is the exact reason that I stopped voting several years ago in anything other than general elections, and, unless actual rational policies return to Labour, I'll not ever vote for them again.
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Dec 2019
10:37am, 13 Dec 2019
6,156 posts
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Dooogs
J2R: I'm no fan of Momentum but it's a bit more nuanced than that: a lot of the failures of Carbyn's leadership came from his inner circle and as far as I understand, only one of them (Lansman) is directly involved in Momentum.
The likes of Karie Murphy, Seamas Milne and Len McCluskey have been far worse for Labour and for the progressive left in the last couple of years and I don't think any of them overlap with Momentum particularly...
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