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Oct 2019
1:57pm, 31 Oct 2019
15,433 posts
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Chrisull
simbil - rare I disagree with you. The Lib Dems policy has actually moved more on Brexit than Labours, and would be the one I'm inclined to not trust (tuition fees anyone? Trident?? PR ??? Drugs decriminalisation ????) They have moved to a 2nd referendum and then suddenly to revoke and then to general election. I assume they are still now campaigning for revoke rather than a referendum, now they have an election, but I'm not 100% sure.
I have deep misgivings about Corbyn's position on Brexit - but and here's where I disagree with WS- Corbyn's personal feelings about Brexit will have little bearing on Labour's final policy. It's quite obvious it's a battle between the coterie surrounding him (Milne, Murray, Formby, and formerly Murphy and Fisher - who are both sort of still around), the unions vs the majority of the PLP (probably including McDonnell and Starmer now). This protracted battle has become a stalemate where now they will not campaign openly for remain , and have had to be dragged kicking to a referendum, and recognise that they have a majoirty of remainers in their supporteres, but will go no further. This has been an advantage in 2017 when they could be Leave to Lexiteers and Remain to all other anti Tories. However it's now become an issue, and one they can't resolve.
Given all they have to do is defend seats, rather than win many new voters, it may yet still work for them, but I think the lack of clarity in press communications ("we support 2nd referendum" one day and next "only after a general election") and the complexity and logical traps in the situation ("We will tell the EU we wish to negotiate then we may well campaign against whatever we agreed" - or "we will negotiate with the EU and then campaign on a reds/jobs first Brexit") make it difficult to justify. It isn't a case of trustworthy here. I'd happily take a 2nd referendum with a Labour govt campaigning to leave as a much better option than any kind of Johnson govt.
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Oct 2019
2:05pm, 31 Oct 2019
32,969 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
I'm pro Scottish independence, but I don't think that Brexit has helped. I think it has shown how tough separating a country from a big union is, and both the costs and the wrangling have been so painful.
There isn't a majority for independence, according to most polls. Whether Brexit is cancelled, or drags on, I think Scottish independence is going to struggle to get traction.
Johnson however, with his aggressive and SE England centred attitude, is going to be a boon for the SNP. And even for Scottish Labour, if they could harness it.
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Oct 2019
2:13pm, 31 Oct 2019
15,434 posts
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Chrisull
From The Sun's political editor - Tom Newton Dunn
"Would Brexit Party candidates withdrawing from target Labour marginals help the Tories? Not at all necessarily, says one Tory-leaning pollster.... intriguingly. Many Labour voters in Workington Man seats are very tribal and would never consider voting Tory, no matter how passionately pro-Brexit they are. So a BP candidate can actually help the Tory there by pulling votes off Labour."
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Oct 2019
2:28pm, 31 Oct 2019
8,254 posts
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simbil
Tommy, yep good point.
Chris, trust is maybe the wrong word and it’s more about clarity. I don’t mind a policy that evolves, but I do need to understand it clearly in order to vote for it. So the ambiguity over what deal Corbyn might get and if they would support it means that you have to align closely with Corbyn in order to be comfortable with how it may get handled. I’m not closely aligned with Corbyn and so cannot be sure he would represent my interests as he has lots of wiggle room to play it anyway he likes.
I take your point though, it is as ever a choice of the least bad realistic option that matters in an election.
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Oct 2019
2:34pm, 31 Oct 2019
9,353 posts
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larkim
Perhaps the manifesto will set out Labour's position more clearly:-
- we will negotiate for XYZ with red line ABC
Then at least you can vote for the Labour Party in the knowledge of what they want Brexit to look like, if it happens at all. Of course, once they are in office and get refused what they want or it costs too much etc, you then have to leave it to them to get to the right end game. But at least you know at the end of it there is a promise of a referendum, so whatever they negotiate you have the ability to say no or yes to it.
The Tories of course have gone through that cycle already, so it might be that plenty of people use their votes to say yes or no to that Tory deal via the GE.
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Oct 2019
2:38pm, 31 Oct 2019
32,970 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
I have never voted Conservative. But I can't understand how a died in the wool Labour voter could think that the Brexit party is "less-worse" than Tories. Aren't they just Tories minus any kind of heritage, governing credibility, economic viability and a complete vacuum of morals?
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Oct 2019
2:42pm, 31 Oct 2019
9,354 posts
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larkim
Back in the days when I did Govt & Politics A Level and was an enthusiast 16yo member of Young Socialists, I couldn't get my head around anyone swapping between Labour and Conservative, especially not those who have voted one way for a considerable period of time. But as Thatcher showed, you can drag dyed in the wool Labour voters over to the right if the correct policies are advocated, and Blair equally did the same in reverse.
BP partly tries to protray itself as working man's Tory I think. Hence it makes it easy enough to jump ship for some Labour voters.
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Oct 2019
2:48pm, 31 Oct 2019
32,972 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
So are you saying they are Workers party, with a Nationalist core now trying to asset a Socialist appeal Larks?
A Nationalist Socialist Workers party, in fact?! 
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Oct 2019
3:10pm, 31 Oct 2019
2,375 posts
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J2R
I'm sure most people who would vote for the Brexit Party do not in fact know a lot about its actual policies (of which it has precious few, in reality). The draw is almost certainly its overall position as anti-establishment, anti-elite, and against "all that political correctness nonsense". As such it will have quite an appeal to a lot of traditional Labour working class voters, who are no more interested in 'diversity' and gender issues than your average Conservative.
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Oct 2019
3:28pm, 31 Oct 2019
680 posts
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Ally-C
Nigel Farage, attended Dulwich College, son of a stockbroker, a city trader himself, that man of the people?😀
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