Sep 2019
7:41am, 23 Sep 2019
5,254 posts
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jda
Can’t speak for labour members but there's little question that virtually the entire shadow cabinet are held in higher esteem than the small cabal of extremists at the top by the vast majority of people.
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Sep 2019
8:18am, 23 Sep 2019
12,131 posts
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richmac
Like Watson or not, trying to get rid of the position? Nah not even the Tories would do that. |
Sep 2019
8:39am, 23 Sep 2019
8,734 posts
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larkim
I think the arch momentum-ites are feeling isolated and exposed and getting aggressive. Fingers crossed their end is rapidly approaching.
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Sep 2019
10:04am, 23 Sep 2019
32,437 posts
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HappyG(rrr)
Not following the detail, but was distressed at the attempt to oust Watson, but encouraged that the issue was "reconciled". FWIW, the narrative that "we can openly discuss our significant differences, then come to reasonable conclusions and still all work together" isn't necessarily a bad result. That's how I took it anyway. There's a stronger demand from Emily Thornberry and Keir Starmer etc. for a firm Remain position, I'd be interested to see if they can come to a position.  G
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Sep 2019
10:13am, 23 Sep 2019
8,735 posts
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larkim
The Brexit position and the leadership position are inextricably intertwined. It's been fairly obvious all along, but even more so now, that Corbyn and his core cabal have a principled position of "leave", wedded to the electoral maths which suggests that a "leave" position is a positive impact in some "traditional" Labour areas. But the Party is overwhelmingly in favour of remaining, and irrespective of the electoral position that psephologists might suggest that implies for a general election, having the leadership at odds with the party en masse is not good. It demonstrates that the leadership is failing to take the party forward on the key matter of policy for the current day, and that just portrays weakness externally. JC's backed into a corner now, of his own making. He can't now come out and say "Remain, remain, remain" because that will rightly generate accusations of him advocating a position which he doesn't believe in. And he can't be strongly in favour of Leave because that will alienate the party machinery that is necessary to work to achieve a victory. And so the inner circle are out of options, yet want to continue with Corbyn. It's a no win situation for them, and at some point will come to a head with him being disposed and a bitter party infighting position begin. Which will make Labour look just as divided as the Tories, possibly even more so, and ruin our chances for another electoral cycle. This isn't going to be a good conference week. |
Sep 2019
10:56am, 23 Sep 2019
8,178 posts
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simbil
Corbyn has put forward a vote on deciding later (after general election) whether Labour will campaign for remain or campaign for whatever red brexit deal they come up with. I think there are 3 votes on the party's remain stance today with Corbyn's, a campaign to remain and some other. |
Sep 2019
11:33am, 23 Sep 2019
15,237 posts
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Chrisull
It's the endgame for Corbyn, the resignation of Andrew Fisher over the weekend was pretty damn devastating. "Lack of competency". Ouch. theguardian.com He was the architect of the 2017 election turnaround. Diane Abbott is begging him to stay on. He is going to be an enormous miss. So now you have 80% (at least) of the shadow cabinet who are openly remain, not least of all big beasts John McDonnell, Keir Starmer, Emily Thornberry and Tom Watson (of course). And in the against remain side you have Seamus Milne, Karie Murphy, Andrew Murray and Len McCluskey. The four Ms must go. They are currently suffocating Labour to death. Christ Karie Murphy shouldn't even be in her place after the Falkirk 2013 voterigging controversy. Yes I know she personally was cleared of any wrong doing but the union fixing stench hangs over the whole affair like bad eggs, and I personally look at that and see "ah innocent unknowing MP candidate who just happened to be the union's preferred candidate" and think that's a little too coincidental. If Miliband hadn't of acted then Karie Murphy would have stood and lost against the SNP and probably have been a footnote. But now Milne (communications) and Murphy (director of staff) have jobs for life. That cannot be correct or democratic. Also what the NEC tried to was not democratic, it was done by the back door, and they know that because the attempted deselections of Watson and Starmer by their CLPs failed embarrassingly. When they couldn't get their way they tried it by the backdoor. So it seems Corbyn wants to retire very soon as he has confided it seems to at least one, or there is a very strong chance of a) a general election which he loses or fails to get an outright majority or b) an unity govt with Jo Swinson demanding he goes. In any of these three scenarios the deputy becomes power broker. Watson despite keeping his job, has been effectively removed from that role of power broker, now "for diversity" they must have a second deputy as well (anybody notice that?) And this would be all good and proper if Corbyn's first shadow cabinet (before the mass resignations) and the big posts had been anything other than while males. And also none of the other posts are shared. Also the idea that Watson would be voted out by the Corbynites. Put it to the vote and let's see. I'm not a great fan (don't like his stands on plenty of issues), but unlike Corbyn he has leadership qualities (such as decisiveness), and I'd happily back him against say Rebecca Long Bailey or Laura Pidcock. The Labour party is a broad church. It's strength derives from that. As the Tories go into a Brexit purity drive, Labour should not be tempted to conduct its own purges. That way electoral disaster lies. |
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Sep 2019
11:35am, 23 Sep 2019
5,256 posts
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jda
I don't see Corbyn's (political) demise as leading to infighting. Surely it will be a straightforward moderate/remain takeover. Since that's the vast majority of the party. Just a shame it might not be soon enough for electoral purposes.
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Sep 2019
11:41am, 23 Sep 2019
15,238 posts
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Chrisull
Yeah I'm with jda. And not all of the changes from the Corbyn era are bad. Christ before Corbyn entered the race and won, we had an identikit set of candidates parroting Miliband-lite cliches and half baked non ideas for manifestos. Yvette Cooper for one considerably upped her game after losing. Chukka quit the party.Both positive results :-). John McDonnell listens to a lot of ideas (universal basic income, reduced hours working week, green deals) proposed by some of the interesting left wing think tanks. (as does Clive Lewis and several others). Labour need to have a broad, exciting vision of the future to offer to people. Inspire in these dark times. Socialism and green policies with modern innovations, working with capitalism when it benefits both. |
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Sep 2019
12:19pm, 23 Sep 2019
8,738 posts
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larkim
I'm not so sure. I can't see the Momentum movement, and all of the new recruits to party in terms of electoral votes in leadership contests, going down without a fight. Put the Brexit position to one side, and there is still a big split between the parliamentary party's reluctant acceptance of Corbyn vs the "Oh, Jeremy Corbyn" singing brigade. They are not going to want a centrist new leader if / when we get to choose one. And momentum were very successful last time at encouraging new members to effectively skew the voting make up of the core membership. I for one was complacent last time that Corbyn couldn't possibly win (though pleased he had stood to demonstrate the broad church nature of the Party). There's nothing to say that a "remain" leaning Corbyn-ite couldn't make a successful tilt at the leadership with the factional support of Momentum, McCluskety et al. |
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