Polarized training

91 watchers
Oct 2021
6:47am, 28 Oct 2021
366 posts
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Bowman
Yes ok, well i don´t write more in the activity here besides whats uploads from Garmin. My notes i write on GC for some reason, and the activity is already here then.
I rather find a metric that already is there since i got loads of data history.
jda
Oct 2021
7:28am, 28 Oct 2021
11,031 posts
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jda
Pipedream as there are too many variables for any controlled experiment to match your specific demands. I think at some level you just have to trust the theory and experience. There’s no controlled experiment to show me that jumping out of my second floor window will be bad for my health either but the theory is strong for that one :-)

I’m doing too many hard sessions because zwift but intend to change that shortly.
Oct 2021
8:19am, 28 Oct 2021
1,214 posts
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Big_G
Coming from the perspective of where running is my priority, but talking of Zwift on the bike, is there any rationale behind doing basically all easy running (except for a few races) but doing sessions on Zwift, in a bid to help reduce the chance of injury? I know to get better at running I need to run more, but I know historically it is the sessions that tend to lead me to injury. Zwifting seems to be easier on the body for me, whilst presumably still getting a decent benefit in terms of HR zones.
Oct 2021
8:24am, 28 Oct 2021
15,901 posts
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larkim
I've got faith that the science will get more refined over time.

In terms of trusting theory and experience though, there are clearly some people who train differently and who appear to extract equivalent performances. I'm not on the lookout for some completely quack theory or approach though, more speculating that the reality might be that there are a range of training approaches that broadly turn out similar outcomes. But the absence of anyone being able to say "if you follow P&D for 18 weeks you'll be faster / slower than if you follow Hadd for the same period" niggles at me which is why I'm curious and interested in this thread.

Bottom line is I wish I was a paid researcher into running!!
jda
Oct 2021
9:06am, 28 Oct 2021
11,033 posts
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jda
Big_G, I doubt you’ll get any better answer than “probably better than not doing the sessions at all but not as good as running them”. There’s certainly some crossover fitness gain in general from cycling to running but I’m my case I know it’s well short of 100%.
Oct 2021
9:18am, 28 Oct 2021
2,117 posts
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SailorSteve
Big_G I’d agree with jda and add that an approach that you enjoy and that avoids injuries, based on your previous experience, is rationale enough.

This doesn’t help the debate I’m afraid but fwiw I now only do “easy” running, zero speedwork, and the odd race, because I used to get regular calf niggles and tears. Now I stay as injury free as anyone that I know, my times aren’t bad and I love my running. I mean really love it. Maybe, almost certainly, I could be quicker, but optimising my personal, unquantifiable, “joy” factor is all the rationale that I need.
Oct 2021
9:31am, 28 Oct 2021
1,216 posts
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Big_G
SailorSteve, yes, I know exactly where you're coming from. I am one of those who loved my running through the pandemic and even though there were no races early on, I still just loved the freedom, exploring new places near me, etc. I felt incredibly lucky to be "out there", and it dawned on me that I didn't need the races in order to still enjoy the running. I have had some time off throughout the year, but not because of running injuries (I took a nasty fall early in the year and was concussed for a while, I had a sickness bug that knocked me back a bit, and also I had Covid recently) but nothing really injury related, other than the odd niggle that I could manage. As you imply, there is a lot to be said for just getting out there and doing what we love.
SPR
Oct 2021
9:34am, 28 Oct 2021
35,550 posts
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SPR
jda - 3 x 20 mins is what couch to 5k starts with, in run/ walks. If you're starting from nothing that's enough overload. If you're experienced, well then it's not really training.

Larkim - Why would you expect to have exact amounts of improvement for X plan? You wouldn't expect that with any other sport.
Oct 2021
9:36am, 28 Oct 2021
75,031 posts
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Gobi
Big

As a fragile ex runner now cyclist who runs a bit I do nearly all my speedwork on the bike. It is better than nothing but no doubt it lacks the specific of carrying my fat arse around.
Oct 2021
9:38am, 28 Oct 2021
54,657 posts
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Velociraptor
I'd love to see the outcome of larkim's aspirational paid research. "You have THESE characteristics, therefore THIS training plan will work better for you than THAT training plan," backed up by evidence, would be interesting and useful.

I've managed to race quite well at various times on a build-up that included more cycling than running, including my third-fastest marathon. Possibly not optimally, but I don't have the mental focus to stick to a training plan that's any more scientific than, "What do I fancy doing today?"

About This Thread

Maintained by Canute
Polarised training is a form of training that places emphasis on the two extremes of intensity. There is a large amount of low intensity training (comfortably below lactate threshold) and an appreciable minority of high intensity training (above LT).

Polarised training does also include some training near lactate threshold, but the amount of threshold training is modest, in contrast to the relatively high proportion of threshold running that is popular among some recreational runners.

Polarised training is not new. It has been used for many years by many elites and some recreational runners. However, it has attracted great interest in recent years for two reasons.

First, detailed reviews of the training of many elite endurance athletes confirms that they employ a polarised approach (typically 80% low intensity, 10% threshold and 10% high intensity. )

Secondly, several scientific studies have demonstrated that for well trained athletes who have reached a plateau of performance, polarised training produces greater gains in fitness and performance, than other forms of training such as threshold training on the one hand, or high volume, low intensity training on the other.

Much of the this evidence was reviewed by Stephen Seiler in a lecture delivered in Paris in 2013 .
vimeo.com

In case you cannot access that lecture by Seiler in 2013, here is a link to his more recent TED talk.

ted.com
This has less technical detail than his 2013 talk, but is nonetheless a very good introduction to the topic. It should be noted that from the historical perspective, Seiler shows a US bias.

Here is another useful video by Stephen Seiler in which he discusses the question of the optimum intensity and duration of low intensity sessions. Although the answer ‘depends on circumstances’ he proposes that a low intensity session should be long enough to reach the point where there are detectable indications of rising stress (either the beginning of upwards drift of HR or increased in perceived effort). If longer than this, there is increasing risk of damaging effects. A session shorter than this might not be enough to produce enough stress to achieve a useful training effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GXc474Hu5U


The coach who probably deserves the greatest credit for emphasis on the value of low intensity training was Arthur Lydiard, who coached some of the great New Zealanders in the 1960's and Scandinavians in the 1970’s. One of his catch-phrases was 'train, don't strain'. However Lydiard never made it really clear what he meant by ‘quarter effort’. I have discussed Lydiard’s ideas on several occasions on my Wordpress blog. For example: canute1.wordpress.com

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