Polarized training

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Oct 2021
4:06pm, 27 Oct 2021
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Brunski
SPR, yeah I guess it depends on how intense your intense is (and what distance you’re training for). I’m probably basing my thoughts on longer road events and it may well work well for a decent 400/800/1500m runner who doesn’t do a lot of mileage but really does hit their speed session.
Oct 2021
4:16pm, 27 Oct 2021
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Gobi
Brunski

I ran 17.33 on Saturday, good luck finding anything but easy in my log :-)
SPR
Oct 2021
4:20pm, 27 Oct 2021
35,545 posts
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SPR
I'm not really convinced by your intense needing to be all that intense either.

The 20-30 mainly easy is going to improve you aerobically, and 4-6 miles of threshold is a week is a pretty decent basic plan for someone that's not accustomed to that level of training.

If you're saying it's not enough mileage for a marathon then yes agreed but running faster won't help that.
Oct 2021
4:33pm, 27 Oct 2021
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Canute
Bowman, thanks for posting the link to Seiler’s more recent TED talk on your new thread about training too hard, today. I repeat it here, and have added it to the side bar of this thread.

ted.com

This has less technical detail than Seiler’s talk on Polarized Training in Paris in 2013, but is nonetheless a very good introduction to the topic.

It should be noted that from the historical perspective, Seiler shows a US bias. The coach who probably deserves the greatest credit for emphasis on the value of low intensity training was Arthur Lydiard, who coached some of the great New Zealanders in the 1960's and Scandinavians in the 1970’s. One of his catch-phrases was 'train, don't strain'. However Lydiard never made it really clear what he meant by ‘quarter effort’. Over the past 15 years, I have discussed Lydiard’s ideas on several occasions on my Wordpress blog. For example: canute1.wordpress.com
Oct 2021
5:08pm, 27 Oct 2021
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larkim
Is there something that fills in this gap for me?

If 80:20 (lazily put - I'm not seeking to ask if that's the right ratio, just using it as a simple example of what might be a ratio) works, and 100% = 10 hours a week (therefore 2 hours high intensity 8 hours low intensity), what is the difference between someone who does 50:20 instead, so that's 5 hours easy, 2 hours hard.

I've got more and more comfortable with easy running, so I'm not for a minute dismissing the easy / hard principles as I've seen the benefits myself. Just trying to see if there's a quantification of how much bang for the buck those 3 extra hours would give when compared to complete inactivity (or normal life).

I'm not suggesting an extreme approach of imagining that a non-elite could sustain all of the high intensity volume that an elite could do, and simply rest for the remainder, but more thinking about how to manage an amateur's hours in the week if they desired good outcomes but had threats to their training windows (e.g. a real world scenario might be a period of longer than usual working hours, or a caring responsibility that means you can't leave the home to run as often etc etc - and yes, I know there are ways around all of that!)

Would it actually be better if you lost 3 hours in the week of training opportunity for a prolonged period to flick to 5:2 or would 80:20 ratio applied to 7 hours be objectively better in terms of outcomes (5.6:1.4) - perhaps as a thought experiment rather than a real suggestion. Bearing in mind we're talking about an athlete who can robustly sustain the 10 hours without fear of over-doing it, so overall fatigue doesn't come into play.
Oct 2021
5:18pm, 27 Oct 2021
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Brunski
Maybe I'm getting it wrong then, won't be the first time. I guess it also depends how you apportion your training.

I think a certain amount of volume is required to get the real aerobic gains from low intensity training, certainly in my case. I went from running around 19 minutes for 5k to running 16:44 off predominantly easy mileage. I'm not sure if I'd have made those same gains keeping mileage at around 30 miles per week and just slowing the easy stuff.

I'd probably have improved as 24 slower miles is maybe an extra 45 mins or so of running a week to 24 steady miles.... but I think the volume increase as much as easing off on the easy intensity was the main thing for me.

Gobi you have a massive endurance base built up over the years so guessing the easy miles and cycling help that tick over.

All good discussion 😊👍
SPR
Oct 2021
5:25pm, 27 Oct 2021
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SPR
Brunski - I did say over the page that, what matters is the relative training load for the individual. if you were adapted to running 24 miles a week and that no longer progressive overload, then you have to change something.

Larkim 3 hours a week at 10mm is 936 a year. How much difference do you think that would make is that increase was sustainable?
Oct 2021
5:30pm, 27 Oct 2021
360 posts
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Bowman
@canute, no thank you, I love this stuff. I found home in your thread here :)

@larkim, interesting thoughts about the distribution of hard vs easy!

Btw I, for the first time, tried to count steps whilst breathing today. Not as easy as it sounds :) will do it some more when my little son isn’t running next to me and talking about anacondas :)
jda
Oct 2021
5:56pm, 27 Oct 2021
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jda
My understanding is that the low intensity stuff is genuinely more beneficial than higher intensity in terms of building aerobic capacity. That is, if you are doing 5 hard 45 min runs a week, you'll improve by slowing down 4 of them and making no other changes. So it's not just about allowing more volume, it's about provoking the right response.

I could be wrong and would welcome correction if so. But I think this is how it was explained to me 30 years ago....I may have misremembered or the science may have moved on...
J2R
Oct 2021
6:48pm, 27 Oct 2021
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J2R
I think Brunski has a point there. As I see it, the primary focus of polarized training is on making sure you're properly recovered to get the benefit out of your training sessions, and that you're not spending too much time in the 'dead' zone, where you're stressing the body too much for long periods. But if your training volume is low, you're probably some way short of this being an issue anyway. You can't hammer out 50 mile weeks if a high percentage of it is at a fast pace, but you may well be able to hammer out 20 mile weeks at that same percentage because the overall volume of hard work will still be low.

jda, that's a very interesting point you make there, if it's true. I think certainly one common misconception is that more is better - if 2 hard sessions a week boost your fitness, then if you can get away with 3 hard sessions you'll get even more of a boost. But the reality is that if you do too much hard work, your VO2max actually drops - in effect, you lose fitness.

About This Thread

Maintained by Canute
Polarised training is a form of training that places emphasis on the two extremes of intensity. There is a large amount of low intensity training (comfortably below lactate threshold) and an appreciable minority of high intensity training (above LT).

Polarised training does also include some training near lactate threshold, but the amount of threshold training is modest, in contrast to the relatively high proportion of threshold running that is popular among some recreational runners.

Polarised training is not new. It has been used for many years by many elites and some recreational runners. However, it has attracted great interest in recent years for two reasons.

First, detailed reviews of the training of many elite endurance athletes confirms that they employ a polarised approach (typically 80% low intensity, 10% threshold and 10% high intensity. )

Secondly, several scientific studies have demonstrated that for well trained athletes who have reached a plateau of performance, polarised training produces greater gains in fitness and performance, than other forms of training such as threshold training on the one hand, or high volume, low intensity training on the other.

Much of the this evidence was reviewed by Stephen Seiler in a lecture delivered in Paris in 2013 .
vimeo.com

In case you cannot access that lecture by Seiler in 2013, here is a link to his more recent TED talk.

ted.com
This has less technical detail than his 2013 talk, but is nonetheless a very good introduction to the topic. It should be noted that from the historical perspective, Seiler shows a US bias.

Here is another useful video by Stephen Seiler in which he discusses the question of the optimum intensity and duration of low intensity sessions. Although the answer ‘depends on circumstances’ he proposes that a low intensity session should be long enough to reach the point where there are detectable indications of rising stress (either the beginning of upwards drift of HR or increased in perceived effort). If longer than this, there is increasing risk of damaging effects. A session shorter than this might not be enough to produce enough stress to achieve a useful training effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GXc474Hu5U


The coach who probably deserves the greatest credit for emphasis on the value of low intensity training was Arthur Lydiard, who coached some of the great New Zealanders in the 1960's and Scandinavians in the 1970’s. One of his catch-phrases was 'train, don't strain'. However Lydiard never made it really clear what he meant by ‘quarter effort’. I have discussed Lydiard’s ideas on several occasions on my Wordpress blog. For example: canute1.wordpress.com

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