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Oct 2021
11:12am, 27 Oct 2021
11,017 posts
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jda
Agree that running forever is a good way of thinking about it. I can come back from an hour or so running and feel basically fresh for the rest of the day. Not currently as a bit out of training! The longest 2h+ runs are inevitably a bit wearing however.
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Oct 2021
11:25am, 27 Oct 2021
355 posts
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Bowman
@SailorSteve, @jda
Yes im aware of that thought, and also "conversational speed"
But, even if i have done thousands and thousands of miles, this "running even slower" is a new for me.
I:e Run forever? Well i did a long run a few days ago. 5:32/km for 33ish km.
And, for the most of it, felt really really easy, and i was pretty fresh afterwards.
After those 30ish km it would have been harder i think, but i would probably been able to stay in that speed for the whole "marathon", without making it a max effort at all.
But, i think that is way to fast for it to be called an easy effort still.
At least to feel completely untouched afterwards.
But can you feel completely fresh after 30-40 km at all really?
But i guess i will have to find my own way a bit, but still, run a little slower than i think.
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Oct 2021
11:41am, 27 Oct 2021
11,018 posts
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jda
No I'd say that is probably about the right speed for you. You say you can do a 40 min 10k, with proper preparation I'd expect 3:15 marathon (4:30 pace) and then add another minute for steady running. All approximate of course.
On reviewing that TEDx video you posted, I wonder if the USA was until recently a bit primitive as regards distance training. The speaker seems to be credited with inventing the 80/20 rule but it seems like he actually did it by observing what top athletes in other countries were already doing. I was lucky enough to have a very good rowing coach in the late 80s when I was at university and we did hours of steady state, which I understood to be established wisdom at the time. Sadly I had next to no ability of course but the coach had a lot of olympic medals in his squads...
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Oct 2021
11:55am, 27 Oct 2021
2,459 posts
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Canute
I agree with aiming for the sensation of ‘being able to run forever’. I also accept that this cannot be literally true. With regard to demand on aerobic capacity during low intensity sessions, you should be at a level where you could continue to maintain that level of aerobic demand ‘forever’. However you will be placing stress on muscles and other body tissues. There will be inevitable accumulation levels of cytokines, the messenger molecules that carry messages about stress levels in the body, leading to both adaptive and protective responses. The better conditioned your muscles and connective tissues, the less the damage and hence less the stress.
Thus paces based on 5Km or 10 Km pace, which largely reflect aerobic capacity, are only an approximate guide to low intensity effort.
About 60 years ago, Lydiard famously recommended low intensity sessions should be at ‘quarter effort’, which he defined as an effort that you could go out and repeat immediately after completing a session. I do not find that practical to assess. However I think it is practical to use the criterion that if you would be quite content to continue at the same pace for several miles after you complete the session, you can call it a 'quarter effort' session.
Note that when you are building up your long run during marathon training, you might not feel comfortable at the end of a long run. That is OK, but recognise that you do need to allow at least one easy day to recover from a long run that left you feeling stressed at the end, even if the pace was slow. If you build up your long run distance gradually, the need for extended recovery from your long run decreases, as your connective tissues will be better adapted and less damaged.
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Oct 2021
12:05pm, 27 Oct 2021
356 posts
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Bowman
@jda & Canute
Thats nice to hear, well then i´m pretty close to a good training regime after all.
I´m glad because then i did have some feeling for it, and have come a long way from no pain no gain. 
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Oct 2021
12:09pm, 27 Oct 2021
3,887 posts
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J2R
The best gauge of running intensity is actually the demands on one's breathing. From a slow jog, as you up the intensity you come to a point where your breathing quickly becomes a lot more laboured. This is the First Ventilatory Threshold (VT1), and for most people seems to occur at around 75-80% of their maximum heart rate. If you keep your effort level just below this point, you'll probably be running at a good 'easy' pace. For me, I know I'm doing it OK if I can breathe 4 steps out (L-R-L-R), 4 steps in.
Incidentally, it's possible to get too obsessed with the easy-hard thing and worry if you go over the required effort level at any point in the session. But the occasional transgression is not a problem. The main point is that you are trying to limit the amount of time you spend in that zone above VT1, as that is a stressor on the system and pushes up the cortisol levels. (Of course, for the hard sessions, you do push well into this zone and beyond, but they are short in duration).
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Oct 2021
12:16pm, 27 Oct 2021
1,211 posts
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Big_G
I wonder about this with my training, as I always think I am too slow on my steady/long runs (I train to HR). I recently did a 40-min 10K and 89-min Half, but often my run long runs are 9:30min/mile or slower. Today's 10-miler is a prime example, where it was 10min/miles, where I still have to walk some of the undulating to being the HR down.
Seiler's channel is quite good I think. I have watched quite a lot of it, and Fitzgerald credits him in his 80/20 book.
For my own part, I am okay with this as I do seem to be betting faster still (the 10K and Half I mentioned were PBs for me), but 9:30min/mile really is very easy in comparison to my race pace. I have recently bought a Stryd footpod to see if those power zones align with my HR zones, but it is too early to tell at the moment as I have not done any sessions for the footpod to gather enough data from.
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Oct 2021
12:19pm, 27 Oct 2021
357 posts
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Bowman
@jtr
I mostly interested in being able to run without injuries, and keep it fun over time.
No fast development in PR and so on. I´m in for the long run..
So even if i like data and theory, it wont take over the feeling.
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Oct 2021
12:22pm, 27 Oct 2021
3,888 posts
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J2R
I would say I typically run most of my easy runs about 2.5 mins per mile slower than my 10K pace. There's quite a range, though - maybe 7:30 to 8:45 mins/mile. I'm not sure I gain any more training benefit, though, from running at 7:30 pace as opposed to even 9:30 pace. Its only advantage is that I can cover more miles in the same time, and higher weekly mileage (up to a point) does tend to bring dividends.
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Oct 2021
12:27pm, 27 Oct 2021
3,889 posts
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J2R
Bowman, over the years I have become more and more convinced that the secret to continuing progress isn't any particular magic method, but simply doing a mix of fast and slower paced running at a level which allows you to avoid injury (or burnout). Keeping things going month after month, year after year, buys you far more than some fancy training method which leads to injury and time out. The American running coach Tinman, whose ideas I have to some extent followed, has an expression for this, "Keep the ball rolling".
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