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Nov 2017
9:24am, 9 Nov 2017
1,569 posts
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Dillthedog57
Stuart, I think the running form question is maybe key. I can happily bumble along at an easy Hadd or Maff pace at 9-9:30, with a shuffling, straight legged gait. I imagine Davie for example, at a comparative pace would look like a gazelle, and host change in running form from that pace to MP is pretty small. Mine is a complete change. That's not to say that I don't get base building, I just question whether it is equally effective for slower runners. I did read somewhere recently that some coaches are doing a speed period at the start of marathon training, so that runners are better able to do their longer endurance runs at a faster pace. Sort of turning Hadd upside down.
For me, Hadd or Maff have a place if I am coming back from injury or a break, but less so if I am in reasonable form from autumn halfs or marathons. Maybe that is more to do with my impatience or not wanting to miss local races over the winter..
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Nov 2017
9:29am, 9 Nov 2017
1,395 posts
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Teknik
Moks how are you keeping? Back in training again?
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Nov 2017
1:55pm, 9 Nov 2017
1,382 posts
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stuart little
Fenners, technik has better recall than I do - read 5k+3 mins for 8:30s
Dill - I'd suggest that a block of accumulating mileage at the slowest pace you feel like you're running with regular drills and strides would be an excellent pre base phase for most. The inverse pyramid comes from cannova, and whilst it clearly works at the pointy end, he is on record as saying it works because the africans he's training are coming to him with enormous arobic development
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Nov 2017
2:19pm, 9 Nov 2017
560 posts
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Brunski
Right, now I've a reliable HRM I feel able to start doing this heart rate training properly. I'm hoping I've a reasonable aerobic base having just run an Autumn marathon but looking at my poor conversion from 5/10k to HM/Marathon I've probably not started squeezing from the bottom (of the toothpaste tube 😬). So I'm thinking that once my niggly knee is pain free I'm going to embark on a Hadd base phase, starting at the best stage after mid December after my final 10k race of the year.
1) How long should I train like this for? My next target marathon will be London '18 - Does 10 weeks of 'pure' Hadd, then 10 weeks of mainly Hadd with some marathon specific workouts sprinkled in sound about right, too long, etc.
2) Is it ok to do the odd parkrun, 10k, etc. in the first 10 weeks? If so is it just swapping that for one of the sub-LT runs?
3) Final question. The heart rate thread has a big quote that seems to go against Hadd training somewhat, saying that there is a 'no mans land' of training between the aerobic threshold and the Lactate threshold. But don't the sub-LT runs fall into this zone? I've also recently read the compleat idiot book and this says similar.
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Nov 2017
2:49pm, 9 Nov 2017
8,169 posts
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Boab
Brunski.
1) Stick with Hadd for the full 20 week, with 10 weeks to go switch a sub LT for a marathon effort (not pace) run building that up. Marathon effort is roughly 85% of max.
Increase the long run over that last 10 week also. I would suggest getting at least 2 runs that are 25-27 miles long. Easy pace.
2) Yes, these will tell you how you are getting on. Not too many though, maybe one every 6 weeks. I say 6 weeks as that is when I (and I think Hadd) seen step changes in training paces.
3) There are many schools of thought. I think it is important to trust that this method works, looks at the examples on this thread. It doesn't work for everyone and maybe the HR training suggested on the other threads will work better for you, but you will never know unless you try.
The only thing I will say is you need to stick with it. I've seen people think they are 'doing Hadd' when they are not and then complaining it doesn't work for them.
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Nov 2017
5:44pm, 9 Nov 2017
561 posts
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Brunski
Thanks a lot Boab, I'm quite looking forward to it if I'm honest. I really improved last year, by doing something I thought was like Hadd but I wasn't doing it properly because of my dodgy HR zones and crappy watch.
Then I flitted from one idea to the next in the build up to York and just about managed to scrape under 3hrs, probably just on increased mileage and a fair bit of marathon paced (and faster) running, not ideal prep. I certainly didn't feel as good in October as I did last spring when I was doing more easier, but prob too hard still, running.
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Nov 2017
7:59am, 10 Nov 2017
8,171 posts
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Boab
Nice one Brunski.
One thing I did forget to say is: Get the closest reading for your max HR as you can, if you haven't got one already. Another mistake I have seen is people guessing their max HR and then all the zones Hadd suggests are out, meaning people have been running too fast or too slow for the adaptations to take place in the manner Hadd describes in the long thread.
Any one of the following will work, treat each of them like a race and taper accordingly.
1) Run a parkrun as hard as you can.
2) Run up a steep hill as hard as you can for 200m, turn jog back and do that again and again (about 4-6 times) until you feel like puking. 
3) Run 800m on a track or road as hard as you can. Rest for a minute then run 400m as fast as you can.
From all of these take the highest HR reading you can see towards the end of the session. This should give you an HR that you can then start to work with for Hadd training.
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Nov 2017
8:48am, 10 Nov 2017
1,383 posts
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stuart little
Boab, mind if i add "but don't set off like a lunatic" to the end of #1
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Nov 2017
8:59am, 10 Nov 2017
8,172 posts
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Boab
Stuart, I would actually say do exactly that and rinse yourself to the end. A sure way to get that spike in HR.
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Nov 2017
9:14am, 10 Nov 2017
1,384 posts
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stuart little
Boab, interesting and shows the small differences in folks physiologies - if I go out like an idiot over 5k, no matter how hard I push, I'll only see max-5bpm or worse. If I go out to run evenly, then go all in over the last 800 or so, I'll get within 1 or 2 bpm of max.
Horses for courses though - as long as you're (nearly) sick at the end, and you're rested going in, they'll all produce a good enough estimate.
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