The vaporfly thread
1 lurker |
86 watchers
Apr 2021
6:43pm, 29 Apr 2021
4,171 posts
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Kieren
It seems to be mainly the foam and not the plate, at least in early but constrained research: Longitudinal bending stiffness does not affect running economy in Nike Vaporfly shoes Laura A. Healey1 & Wouter Hoogkamer1 LINK: static1.squarespace.com |
Apr 2021
6:54pm, 29 Apr 2021
34,062 posts
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SPR
"Conclusion: Cutting the carbon-fiber plate and reducing the longitudinal bending stiffness did not have a significant effect on the energy savings in the Nike Vaporfly 4%. This suggests that the plate alone plays a limited role in the 4% energy savings, and instead those likely result from a combination and interaction of the foam, geometry, and plate." Until someone takes the plate out and can run pretty much the same times on just the foam I'm saying the plate is pretty crucial to keeping things together at the very least. |
Apr 2021
7:17pm, 29 Apr 2021
2,585 posts
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Oranj
If it was just the foam, we'd have seen more record breaking in Hokas? Or it is a 'special' foam (I think perhaps it is).
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Apr 2021
7:27pm, 29 Apr 2021
34,063 posts
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SPR
It's special foam and given I have the Reeboks which have the foam but not a plate, I agree the foam is better than other foams but it's so soft I doubt it could be sustained without something stabilising it. I think the Pegusus which has no plate has quite a bit of react for example instead of pure Zoom aka pebax.
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Apr 2021
8:08pm, 29 Apr 2021
4,454 posts
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K5 Gus
The fairly new Nike Invincible is the first Nike shoe that has the same ZoomX foam but no plate at all (previously they had the Pegasus Turbo which had a thin layer of ZoomX but also a thicker layer of React foam as well.) They have had to make the foot print of the Invincible very wide to provide enough stability with the super soft foam. So I agree the plate plays a key role from a stability point of view Seem to recall they claimed something to do with the stiff plate meant the toes weren't bending each stride and this saved some energy |
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Apr 2021
8:09pm, 29 Apr 2021
4,455 posts
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K5 Gus
Cross post 😄
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Apr 2021
11:16pm, 30 Apr 2021
4,172 posts
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Kieren
The hokas are EVA blend, Nikes et al are pebax blend. Pebax is a brand - so far as I understand, asics new foam is similar but their own brand. I'm not so sure about other brands. I had read another study (lost the link) that said the plate helps the supination stage of the gate which is more rigid and reduces fatigue in feet / lower legs. I have no idea though - I suppose plate use could be compared somewhat by maybe testing the following carbon plate shoes : Nike vapor Fly (pebax foam) Nike Zoom Fly (react foam) Atreyu Artist. (EVA foam) There is probably a lot more to it, like rockers / geometry. I have the zoom fly & they feel faster than my pegasus. I also have the Invincible and am not really a fan. There is a lag on the stride so you (I feel) stomp the ground a bit harder - as you might punch a wall in a boxing glove vs bare knuckle. |
May 2021
3:02pm, 1 May 2021
186 posts
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fuzzyduck79
Pebax foam has been around quite a lot longer than VF. What changed the game was nobody tried to use 40-50mm of it before. I lean towards carbon plate not contributing much, based on second hand verbal account from Nike's own scientists, but am always open to seeing more data. |
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May 2021
3:42pm, 1 May 2021
34,081 posts
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SPR
Don't think your comparison really works Kieran. EVA and react don't need to be stabilised, in fact react has been used to stabilise pebax as said above. The invincibl FD - Has there been previous shoes with pebax foam? I know pebax has been used as a plastic in some shoes previously but not as a foam. Yes the amount of foam is a game changer but the foam is simply better than other foams in exactly the same amounts and it still wasn't being used in race shoes from what I can see (assuming it wouldn't be in training shoes as it wouldn't last long enough for the cost). |
May 2021
4:49pm, 1 May 2021
12,462 posts
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ITG 🇮🇸
Afternoon, folks! I took my Next % out for a half "time-trial" (by myself) and the results are blogged. Short version is: they work. fetcheveryone.com/blog/60676/2020/5#blog406912 |
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