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Jan 2021
7:53am, 9 Jan 2021
500 posts
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Big_G
Larkim, I initially thought that too (the bit about self-justifying about not running at an easy pace). Just as a matter of interest, do you feel a big "rocker motion" in your ZF? I do, almost to the extent that it feels strange even walking in them.
I don't want to use the word "clunky" because that makes then sound bad, but I can't think of a better word at the moment. But at a slow pace, the ZF3 do feel a bit "clunky" to me. Whereas it seems to me the VF feel good pretty much at any effort, and it feels more natural walking in them.
All this is just anecdotal. I don't have any way of measuring power and I haven't done any tests to HR.
Like I say, none of this is a complaint, just an observation, but it's an observation I don't fully understand, really. I know the ZF3 and VF aren't really designed to be ran slowly in. Maybe I'm overthinking it 
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Jan 2021
8:33pm, 9 Jan 2021
13,155 posts
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larkim
Yes, that all sounds very familiar!
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Feb 2021
6:13pm, 2 Feb 2021
3,372 posts
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J2R
So I have finally been able to join the club (well, not the Vaporfly club specifically but the 'new superfast carbon plated shoes' club). I picked up a pair of Saucony Endorphin Pros yesterday. Did an effort session last night with them, and they felt fast, although I don't suppose this is where they come into their own. The important thing is that they were comfy and didn't feel weird or unstable.
Anyway, two questions have come to mind in connection with this shoe type.
Firstly, there's a striking quote in this article https://www.reuters.com/article/us-athletics-shoe-factbox-idUSKBN1ZN0NH: "Analysis published by The New York Times showed runners wearing a version of Nike’s Zoom Vaporfly 4% or ZoomX Vaporfly Next% ran 4-5% faster than those who were wearing average shoes, and 2-3% quicker than the next-fastest popular shoe." So taking the most conservative figure there, 2%. A 2% improvement would see my half marathon time reduced by 95 seconds. Reasonable enough? But could I also extrapolate that to 10K and 5K times, and if not, why not? Why might I get 2% improvement for marathon but not get it for 5K? It depends, I suppose, on the mechanism. If the speed improvement results from reduced tiredness late on from trashed legs, then I can see why there would be a difference. But if the shoes are just faster, have more energy return, then I don't see why there would not also be a 2% benefit for 5K.
Secondly, and this is a trickier one. People report that after racing in these shoes, their legs are not so sore the next day. And I have to say that my legs today really didn't feel as if I had done a hard efforts session yesterday, which may well be due to the Endorphin Pros. But in training terms, is this actually a good thing? Does it not mean in effect that my session yesterday was not as tough as normal and therefore I will have got less training effect out of it, trashed legs (and the recovery therefrom) being a necessary part of effective training?
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Feb 2021
6:26pm, 2 Feb 2021
72 posts
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fuzzyduck79
That article is a year old, so it is very possible the gap between Vaporfly and the best of the rest is now smaller
Mens HM world record went last Dec, to a runner wearing adidas adizero adios Pro. Seen some biggish names sign up to wear their shoe since. Saucony Endorphin Pros seem to be in similar class but we need to see more race data to get a feel for whether they are as good.
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Feb 2021
7:00pm, 2 Feb 2021
35,400 posts
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Hills of Death (HOD)
Has anyone tried Nike Pegasus Turbo 2s
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Feb 2021
7:30pm, 2 Feb 2021
5,028 posts
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Windsor Wool
J2R - I think we debated this before and most of us also felt / saw some benefit over 5 / 10k. I took my 10k down by 90s the 1st time I raced 10k in the 4%.
I’ve also debated your Q2 with myself. Decided to run sessions in old super shoes in the end simply as I like the feel / faster recovery.
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Feb 2021
7:58pm, 2 Feb 2021
3,373 posts
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J2R
WW, what do you mean by old super shoes? E.g, worn out Vaporflies? My question was more out of academic interest rather than anything else, as I have no plans to run my training sessions in the new shoes, which are being kept strictly for races, given their limited durability. But if I thought I could get the same aerobic benefit from a training session while speeding up my recovery, I might be tempted to get a pair of Endorphin Speeds (a more general purpose shoe) for training purposes.
However, if the reduction in leg-trashing is simply as a result of the generous cushioning, rather than the more sophisticated aspects of the technology such as the carbon plate, I could possibly get by with something a lot cheaper. In fact, I have a pair of Hoka Mafate Speeds which are nominally trail shoes, but whose lugs are rather worn down, so they're not much use off-road any more. I may try doing some hard speed work in those, something I've never done, to see if my legs feel better the next day with those as well. (I've always found these shoes somewhat slow and spongy, but a few times recently I've picked up the speed in them and started to sense a bit of springy energy return kicking in, which has surprised me).
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Feb 2021
8:02pm, 2 Feb 2021
18,832 posts
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Bazoaxe
I was planning to use my VFs for training speedwork when I decide they need replaced as my racing shoe. I have about 150m in them so far, how many more miles will I get. Another 50 ?
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Feb 2021
8:13pm, 2 Feb 2021
11,333 posts
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chunkywizard
I’ve done 500 miles in mine!
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Feb 2021
8:41pm, 2 Feb 2021
5,029 posts
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Windsor Wool
Yep, old VF. Taken a couple of pairs up towards 500 miles now. Wouldn’t race in them any longer but still an absolute favourite to run in.
Baz, I think you just get a feel for when the magic starts wear off. Sometimes I think it’s come back though to my 4% FlyKnit. They are still my favourite of all and I’m now generously applying Shoegoo to try and get a few more miles out of them!
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