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Jan 2022
7:11am, 28 Jan 2022
16,788 posts
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larkim
I think the distinction is about the duration of sustainability of the pace in time rather than distance. I know it doesn't quite work for the p&d paces but tempo I've seen described as the pace you can sustain for an hour. So with that as the idea a slower runner would cover a shorter distance.
So maybe p&d are thinking about something like the sustainable pace for 70-75 minutes?
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Jan 2022
7:51am, 28 Jan 2022
1,432 posts
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Big_G
OK, thanks all. I will err towards HMP then I think. I have been running for years but never really followed a plan before, even though I have had this book for quite some time.
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Jan 2022
8:29am, 28 Jan 2022
16,789 posts
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larkim
I tend to find myself shooting for an ambitious pace though so end up running the tempo distances just about as fast as I can sustain for that distance on that day and still be able to continue on for a couple of miles of cool down without a rest.
Doesn't help that the last half a mile of my usual tempo route is steadily uphill mind you.
Whether that means I'm getting less out of the intended adaptions than I would if I stuck to the prescribed paces I don't know. At the moment it suits me though as I feel the need to test out my capacity a bit to help me pinpoint where I really am compared to previous marathon training schedules.
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Jan 2022
8:37am, 28 Jan 2022
1,433 posts
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Big_G
larkim, yes, I know what you mean about testing capacity. Pre-Covid, I raced regularly so had a better idea, but in the last year or two I have been ticking off marathons at a generally slower pace, so I don't have that specific knowledge of where I am, and I don't have enough data from previous training to compare really (the large majority of my weekly mileage over the last couple of years is at low HR, often on relatively hilly routes). I have 2 or 3 Halfs and hopefully a 10K before Manchester to hopefully dial in the target pace a bit. I did do a 5K last night which has helped, but even that wasn't perfectly paced as I went off too easy, again because I don't know where I am pace-wise. I know 5Ks aren't the best predictor of a marathon time but it all helps I suppose.
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Jan 2022
8:46am, 28 Jan 2022
16,790 posts
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larkim
I might be making excuses a bit there too, tbh - I think there's something badly wired in my mentality which does make me tend towards tempos being close to flat out by the end; I'm not quite at finish line 10k HR by the end of a tempo, but I am only a few beats away. I'm guilty of the same in MP sessions too, usually going 5-10s per mile faster than the plan almost entirely due to psychological weakness on my part about a fear of going slower than plan. I'm flawed, what can I say 
That said, it's really not seemed to do me any harm directly and is nice to have some confidence closer to race day that if you can sustain (say) 7 miles at 6m30 pace, marathoning at 7m05 should feel pretty OK and ditto with MP.
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Jan 2022
8:51am, 28 Jan 2022
4,194 posts
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Curly45
Basically, "slower" runners tend to concertina so they don't have the gaps between race pace and training pace that "faster" runners have. That means they can sustain current race pace for longer sections in training. Additionally, faster runners tend to be doing more mileage (and probably more sustained racing) and thus will find the balance of the week might be messed up by going too hard.
This happens to all of us depending on fitness, i.e. the fitter you are the better /more defined the gaps between paces. Its actually because the training hasn't been done to create the distance between paces - its one of the indicators I use for increasing fitness. Easy runs get easier, session paces get more obvious and controlled.
All of that aside, I never had a problem going at 15k pace/10 mile pace for tempo runs, but then I tended to do my slow/easy runs a lot easier than most of you.
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Jan 2022
8:57am, 28 Jan 2022
16,791 posts
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larkim
I've got the biggest range of training paces now that I've ever had, which has taken some doing! I know I'm not going as slow as perhaps I should, but I'm regularly doing easy runs in the 8:45-9:00 slot whilst doing MP at about 7:15 and tempos at 6:50, intervals at 5:50-6:00.
So I've come a long way from my very narrow band. My wife's pace variety on the other hand is much narrower, from about 9:30 to 11:00 (I'm trying to work on her!)
At the moment I'd struggle to define what my 10m race pace is so it's all aspirational at the moment. For those tempos I've got a broad benchmark in my head that I'd like them to be faster than 90min pace but it's a touch unscientific as it's more where I want to be than where I know I am.
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Jan 2022
9:02am, 28 Jan 2022
1,434 posts
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Big_G
Curly, thanks, I understand what you are saying. As an aside, I am very regularly over 9:30min/miles and sometimes over 10min/miles for my runs. I sometimes wonder if that is too slow (it is slow compared to most on this thread, I am sure) but I run to HR and I am seeing improvements from that, so I am happy enough. For Manchester I am kind of following the 12 week P&D plan though, but not strictly as I prefer to race really (I don't use HR for sessions or races).
Not trying to stray over to HR training, but it is strange as sometimes it seems I am levelling off or going backwards on easy/steady training runs, but then suddenly I will see a big jump forward on a given route at that HR. This happened last week actually. I think it is so many factors like weather, humidity, and then suddenly everything comes together and there is a jump in performance it seems. Very satisfying when it happens, I must say.
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Jan 2022
9:13am, 28 Jan 2022
16,792 posts
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larkim
I see those sorts of steps too Big_G; though I usually correlate them to an intensity trigger like intervals or tempos which *may* cause a step forward in easy running pace / HR (beats per mile effectively). Pretty unscientific though, not sure I could accurately go back through my logs and see it, even though at the time it feels like it is significant at the time.
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Jan 2022
9:41am, 28 Jan 2022
11,887 posts
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jda
I don't think running your threshold a bit hard is problematic, beyond either injuring yourself, or falling apart before the end of the session. If you're doing 40 mins of threshold in total and maintaining pace to the last intervals, it's unlikely you are going too fast anyway.
But of course this should only be a modest proportion of your running.
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